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Old 03-11-2010, 02:38 PM   #36
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

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I'm simply asking you to quantify what you think improvement means?
Here comes the spin...
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:02 PM   #37
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

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Why? Because I consistently smoke every one of you with facts?
I think you are smoking something, but it isn't the rest of us with facts.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:12 PM   #38
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

Fact:

A majority of people on panthernation.com are annoyed by ban basketball.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:21 PM   #39
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I'm simply asking you to quantify what you think improvement means?
Getting better over time. That includes duals, tournaments, qualifying tournaments, and national tournament. That is NOT unattainable.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:23 PM   #40
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Fact:

A majority of people on panthernation.com are annoyed by ban basketball.
Why? Because I'm a Panther fan and support the team?

What other choice do I have as a fan of the team? Be a fairweather fan?
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:32 PM   #41
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Why? Because I'm a Panther fan and support the team?

What other choice do I have as a fan of the team? Be a fairweather fan?
I just "smoked" you with a fact and that is the best you can come up with?
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:35 PM   #42
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I just "smoked" you with a fact and that is the best you can come up with?
Wow! And I actually argue with this...
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:39 PM   #43
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Wow! And I actually argue with this...
You keep responding buddy, "smoked" again.

This is fun.

Lets come up with a new fact.

Attendence average for 2009-2010 Wrestling was at a 5 year low. I am talking duals in the west gym.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

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Getting better over time. That includes duals, tournaments, qualifying tournaments, and national tournament. That is NOT unattainable.
I don't attend UNI wrestling events, and I probably won't in the future, except when they are wrestling down here at Carver-Hawkeye (just because it's easy for me to get to--- I am NOT a Hawkeye fan). It doesn't make any difference to me if they keep the coach or move on. But I have to tell you that the perception of the program from casual fans like myself, and from other people here in Iowa City who follow wrestling more closely than I do, is that the program is getting worse over time, not better.

Now, that may not be the case, and I won't pretend to be a good judge. But perception is very important in college athletics.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:43 PM   #45
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You keep responding buddy, "smoked" again.

This is fun.

Lets come up with a new fact.

Attendence average for 2009-2010 Wrestling was at a 5 year low. I am talking duals in the west gym.
Always nice to see a Panther "fan" ridicule his team. I'm sure the wrestling team appreciates your support, Panther "fan."

And, yes, I will keep responding.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:44 PM   #46
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I don't attend UNI wrestling events, and I probably won't in the future, except when they are wrestling down here at Carver-Hawkeye (just because it's easy for me to get to--- I am NOT a Hawkeye fan). It doesn't make any difference to me if they keep the coach or move on. But I have to tell you that the perception of the program from casual fans like myself, and from other people here in Iowa City who follow wrestling more closely than I do, is that the program is getting worse over time, not better.

Now, that may not be the case, and I won't pretend to be a good judge. But perception is very important in college athletics.
Fair enough. I just can't help but find it fascinating how perception actually rules in this case, yet the facts suggest otherwise.

It's probably no wonder how we fall for false information as easily as we do...
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:01 PM   #47
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

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Always nice to see a Panther "fan" ridicule his team. I'm sure the wrestling team appreciates your support, Panther "fan."

And, yes, I will keep responding.
I am not ridiculing the team. I am ridiculing the coach, fans will from time to time criticize a coach. You wanted facts, theres one. If Lickliter (sp?) is fired from Iowa, the fact that there attendance has gone down will be a factor.

You wanted facts, I brought facts. You resort to "fan."

Ha ha, smoked again. Funny.

Someone else try now.
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:33 PM   #48
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Fair enough. I just can't help but find it fascinating how perception actually rules in this case, yet the facts suggest otherwise.
The problem you have winning this argument is that the facts do not suggest otherwise. The facts suggest the program is headed downhill at an accelerating rate.

1. We've gone from winning the western regional, usually quite handily, but by narrower and narrower margins, to now actually not winning for the first time in 25 years.

2. We've gone from putting 8-10 wrestlers in the national tournament to putting 3-4 in it.

3. We've gone from smoking most teams outside of the top 10 in dual meets to scrapping to have a .500 record against them.

4. We've gone from top 15-20 national finishes to god knows where we will be this year, almost certainly in the bottom half of all wrestling teams.

5. We've gone, despite your claim we haven't been able to compete with them in 30 years, from being very competitive with Iowa and ISU to suffering our worst loss to each of them in the 90 or so year history of the program this year. Fact is we used to generally win 3-5 matches against those most elite programs when we faced them. We've beaten ISU 2 times in the last 8 years, and we went down to the final match against Iowa just 3 years ago.

I realize we had the same coach for some of those better results, but apparently he has lost the fire for the sport he once had and is now just hanging on until he gets fired or the program is cut.

If you were a "fan" of the team instead of just the coach you might be able to see some of these facts, eh boys?
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:36 PM   #49
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

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Funny that I also didn't read any good news from "fans" on here about coach Penrith being awarded, by his PEERS, Coach of the Year in the WWC. So, based on what I read on here from UNI "fans," all 6 coaches in the WWC must be seeing something that our geniuses on here (who never even go to wrestling matches, by the way) aren't seeing.

Always nice to see UNI "fans" rooting on their team, eh, boys?

Of course they did, if you saw the job that this guy has done at a school that could be a strong program, you wouldn't want them to make another hire either.

Jesus, think if UNI hired a good coach. None of those schools would have a chance.
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:43 PM   #50
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The problem you have winning this argument is that the facts do not suggest otherwise. The facts suggest the program is headed downhill at an accelerating rate.

1. We've gone from winning the western regional, usually quite handily, but by narrower and narrower margins, to now actually not winning for the first time in 25 years.

2. We've gone from putting 8-10 wrestlers in the national tournament to putting 3-4 in it.

3. We've gone from smoking most teams outside of the top 10 in dual meets to scrapping to have a .500 record against them.

4. We've gone from top 15-20 national finishes to god knows where we will be this year, almost certainly in the bottom half of all wrestling teams.

5. We've gone, despite your claim we haven't been able to compete with them in 30 years, from being very competitive with Iowa and ISU to suffering our worst loss to each of them in the 90 or so year history of the program this year. Fact is we used to generally win 3-5 matches against those most elite programs when we faced them. We've beaten ISU 2 times in the last 8 years, and we went down to the final match against Iowa just 3 years ago.

I realize we had the same coach for some of those better results, but apparently he has lost the fire for the sport he once had and is now just hanging on until he gets fired or the program is cut.

If you were a "fan" of the team instead of just the coach you might be able to see some of these facts, eh boys?
As for #2, the new qualification system has A LOT to do with that. Under the old system, we would have qualified many more.

As for questioning my being a fan of the team, don't. I PROMISE you that no one on this forum does more to support this team , financially and otherwise, than I do. Say what you want about all else, but DO NOT question my loyalty to this entire wrestling program.

Has it ever seemed odd to you-or any of you-that the wrestlers support the coaches and the program? Isn't that really all that matters?

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Old 03-11-2010, 04:44 PM   #51
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Of course they did, if you saw the job that this guy has done at a school that could be a strong program, you wouldn't want them to make another hire either.

Jesus, think if UNI hired a good coach. None of those schools would have a chance.
Wow! I, as well as the coaches, never thought of that! Man, you have some deep intellect.
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Old 03-11-2010, 04:53 PM   #52
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As for questioning my being a fan of the team, don't. I PROMISE you that no one on this forum does more to support this team , financially and otherwise, than I do. Say what you want about all else, but DO NOT question my loyalty to this entire wrestling program.
Like's to dish it out, but he can't take it, eh boys?

You constantly question everyone else loyalty and fan status. By the way, you haven't been here very long, but that is one of the few things that is supposed to be against the rules on here - claiming to be a "better fan" than others.
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Old 03-11-2010, 05:01 PM   #53
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The problem you have winning this argument is that the facts do not suggest otherwise. The facts suggest the program is headed downhill at an accelerating rate.

1. We've gone from winning the western regional, usually quite handily, but by narrower and narrower margins, to now actually not winning for the first time in 25 years.

2. We've gone from putting 8-10 wrestlers in the national tournament to putting 3-4 in it.

3. We've gone from smoking most teams outside of the top 10 in dual meets to scrapping to have a .500 record against them.

4. We've gone from top 15-20 national finishes to god knows where we will be this year, almost certainly in the bottom half of all wrestling teams.

5. We've gone, despite your claim we haven't been able to compete with them in 30 years, from being very competitive with Iowa and ISU to suffering our worst loss to each of them in the 90 or so year history of the program this year. Fact is we used to generally win 3-5 matches against those most elite programs when we faced them. We've beaten ISU 2 times in the last 8 years, and we went down to the final match against Iowa just 3 years ago.

I realize we had the same coach for some of those better results, but apparently he has lost the fire for the sport he once had and is now just hanging on until he gets fired or the program is cut.

If you were a "fan" of the team instead of just the coach you might be able to see some of these facts, eh boys?
Upon further review, man, are there errors in your "facts." Once again, perception does not equal reality.

1. False. We have won the regionaal handily each year that Penrith has been there. The gap did not narrow each year. The gap narrowed significantly last year, when we beat Wyoming by a few points, and lost this year. Every year prior, we dominated.

2. Again, new qualifying system explains that.

3. Only this year, in years past, false.

4. 5 of Penrith's 9 seasons have finished top 15-20. Last such finish was the 2008 season, a mere two years ago.

We have finished top 15-20 21 times since 1981 (first year back as a DI school). 5 of those times was under Penrith, over a span of 4 different coaches.

Again, the facts do not show that the program is "rapidly deteriorating." It has not been a strong program in for 25 years.

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Old 03-11-2010, 05:02 PM   #54
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Like's to dish it out, but he can't take it, eh boys?

You constantly question everyone else loyalty and fan status. By the way, you haven't been here very long, but that is one of the few things that is supposed to be against the rules on here - claiming to be a "better fan" than others.
Who criticizes our teams and coaches?

Guess I answered the loyalty question, didn't I, "fan?"
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Old 03-11-2010, 05:05 PM   #55
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You know, instead of me having to always be the one to do all of you "fans' " researching for you, why don't you just access the same data that I keep having to remind all of you of?

Here is the link. Happy learnin.'

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/...ngYearbook.pdf
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Old 03-11-2010, 08:43 PM   #56
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

I am an eternal optimist.

Go UNI! Shock the world. I would hope all UNI fans (of any sport) would also support the Men's Basketball team if they were playing a #1 seed next weekend.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:29 AM   #57
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How about this for facts Ban. Briggs had 3 years out of 16 where the team finished at the NCAAs 20th place or worse. Manning had 1 out of 3. Penrith has had 5 out of 9 seasons with a finish 20th or worse. While teams are being dropped and the number of schools that have a wrestling team has decreased, UNI has not advanced. So even if the numbers stayed constant, as far as NCAA D1 wrestling teams, the results I mentioned would be poor. Add to those results that there are fewer teams competing, it makes those results even look worse. What am I missing?
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:49 AM   #58
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How about this for facts Ban. Briggs had 3 years out of 16 where the team finished at the NCAAs 20th place or worse. Manning had 1 out of 3. Penrith has had 5 out of 9 seasons with a finish 20th or worse. While teams are being dropped and the number of schools that have a wrestling team has decreased, UNI has not advanced. So even if the numbers stayed constant, as far as NCAA D1 wrestling teams, the results I mentioned would be poor. Add to those results that there are fewer teams competing, it makes those results even look worse. What am I missing?
You make a good point, but fewer teams also mean more competition for recruits.

One of the points that I make is that it is tough for UNI to compete with Iowa and ISU for recruits, simply because if the best want to wrestle in Iowa, they are likely going to pick one of the top two teams in the country. I'm not sure how we overcome this problem; it is real.

I would also add that there is much more parity in wrestling today than in previous years. So, if we are simply maintaining our position nationally at UNI (I would agree with this), others are moving up. However, many others are also moving down. As I keep saying, all sports are up and down cycles: down years and up years.
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:54 AM   #59
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I am an eternal optimist.

Go UNI! Shock the world. I would hope all UNI fans (of any sport) would also support the Men's Basketball team if they were playing a #1 seed next weekend.
They've got my full support. I've actually followed college basketball more the past two years than I have since...my own basketball playing days! True story!
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Old 03-12-2010, 11:58 AM   #60
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You make a good point, but fewer teams also mean more competition for recruits.

One of the points that I make is that it is tough for UNI to compete with Iowa and ISU for recruits, simply because if the best want to wrestle in Iowa, they are likely going to pick one of the top two teams in the country. I'm not sure how we overcome this problem; it is real.

I would also add that there is much more parity in wrestling today than in previous years. So, if we are simply maintaining our position nationally at UNI (I would agree with this), others are moving up. However, many others are also moving down. As I keep saying, all sports are up and down cycles: down years and up years.
Since 1981 (Ban, you used that year) there have been:
4 seasons with zero all-americans (2 of them for Penrith)
10 times in the top 12 (1 of them for Penrith)
11 times finished 18th or worse (6 for Penrith)

We aren't maintaining our position nationally. My head hurts from reading that book but I wanted to show some facts.

Good luck to the 4 guys next weekend.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:09 PM   #61
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Since 1981 (Ban, you used that year) there have been:
4 seasons with zero all-americans (2 of them for Penrith)
10 times in the top 12 (1 of them for Penrith)
11 times finished 18th or worse (6 for Penrith)

We aren't maintaining our position nationally. My head hurts from reading that book but I wanted to show some facts.

Good luck to the 4 guys next weekend.
I think that we are certainly maintaining our position. If you look at the overall finishes at nationals, you don't see a big slide downward since Penrith. It has basically maintained since 1981.

I just don't buy two arguments that keep coming up when people talk about our program:

1. That it is in a rapid downward slide. That began long before Penrith came on the scene.

2. That poor performance of the team is all due to coaching. I just find that short-sighted.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:17 PM   #62
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I think that we are certainly maintaining our position. If you look at the overall finishes at nationals, you don't see a big slide downward since Penrith. It has basically maintained since 1981.

I just don't buy two arguments that keep coming up when people talk about our program:

1. That it is in a rapid downward slide. That began long before Penrith came on the scene.

2. That poor performance of the team is all due to coaching. I just find that short-sighted.
1. From 1981-2000 UNI finished outside the TOP 17 at nationals only 5 times. Since 2001, UNI has finished outside the TOP 17 at nationals 6 times.

2. It's shortsighted to think the coach has nothing to do with the situation.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:24 PM   #63
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2. It's shortsighted to think the coach has nothing to do with the situation.
I've never said that they play no role. I'm saying, as I've always said, that is isn't ALL the coach, which is what people are implying.

Just witness the results of this year's Big 10's to see my point. Teams that finished dismally this year were doing very well just 1-2 years ago (Michigan and Northwestern), and teams that were doing dismally 1-2 years ago improved greatly this year (Michigan State most notably).

As I always say, so did the Michigan and Northwestern coaches suddenly just get really bad at their jobs this year, and did Minkel (MSU) suddenly get much better this year? That's my point; there are A LOT of variables that explain success and failure.
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:33 PM   #64
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I've never said that they play no role. I'm saying, as I've always said, that is isn't ALL the coach, which is what people are implying.

Just witness the results of this year's Big 10's to see my point. Teams that finished dismally this year were doing very well just 1-2 years ago (Michigan and Northwestern), and teams that were doing dismally 1-2 years ago improved greatly this year (Michigan State most notably).

As I always say, so did the Michigan and Northwestern coaches suddenly just get really bad at their jobs this year, and did Minkel (MSU) suddenly get much better this year? That's my point; there are A LOT of variables that explain success and failure.
Both of those schools lost 4 time all americans. So, they could recruit and develop talent, then those kids graduated. Ban, you don't understand how things work. Maybe that's why you were calling for 'WRESTLEOFFS' the week before the Regional. Don't you think most programs should already have their set lineup the week before that tournament? Yet, you were looking for 6 weights to figure out who was the best one.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:00 PM   #65
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Both of those schools lost 4 time all americans. So, they could recruit and develop talent, then those kids graduated. Ban, you don't understand how things work. Maybe that's why you were calling for 'WRESTLEOFFS' the week before the Regional. Don't you think most programs should already have their set lineup the week before that tournament? Yet, you were looking for 6 weights to figure out who was the best one.
Was I calling for wrestle-offs?! They did have some wrestle offs to determine who went to regionals. They have some wrestle-offs every year (or almost) to determine who is going.

I'm not sure how much you follow the team, but they juggled their lineup all season with certain weight classes. It would only stand to reason that they'd have wrestle offs.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:05 PM   #66
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

We have wrestling?
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:07 PM   #67
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We have wrestling?
Yes, just as we do women's soccer.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:15 PM   #68
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

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Originally Posted by ban basketball View Post
Yes, just as we do women's soccer.
Oh, I knew about women's soccer.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:37 PM   #69
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

ban basketball....

Here is the deal. We have all argued this forever. These are the ONLY facts that matter....

- We are sending less and less to the NCAA's
- We lost our conference this year
- Our total score against our five top opponets was 169-29 (Iowa, ISU, Wis, Purdue, OKState)
- We were .500 or worse in duals this year

I understand your love for Penrith. I understand it is hard to recruit against Iowa and ISU. I understand that it is difficult to maintain a certain level for extended periods of time. However YOU have to understand that at UNI, most do not fall for mediocrity.

If our basketball team was 14-16 with losses to Iowa, ISU, SIU, Creighton, and Missouri State, we would be talking the exact same way. It would be time for a change. Maybe that isn't all the coach. As a matter of fact, most of it probably isn't. However, the players are on scholarship. They are here. If they don't pan out, that sucks for us. However, coaches are replaceable. That is what needs to be done. That is what would happen if Farley began to go 5-6 every year. That same fate would happen to Jacobsen if he was 14-16.

Don't get defensive. It isn't anything against Penrith. It is simply that we are not relevant in the wrestling world anymore. I understand that we were never really a national threat, but we were much better. We would at least compete with teams such as ISU, Iowa, and OK State. That is simply not the case anymore.

Even if a coach is successful, when the program becomes stagnant or even declines, something needs to be done. A new coach will bring a spark. It is that simple.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:38 PM   #70
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Default Re: Panther match ups at NCAA

UNI should get men's hockey and serve beer at it. That's my dream. If the University of Alabama-Huntsville can have a team in the CHA we can too. Or join the WCHA.
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