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Old 05-16-2017, 03:50 PM   #106
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MAC basketball budgets
Ohio - 3.1 m
Akron - 3.09 m
Bowling Green - 2.39 m
Toledo - 2.34 m
Miami (OH) - 2.33 m
Western Michigan - 2.18 m
Kent State - 2.15 m
Buffalo - 2.05 m
Eastern Michigan - 2.03 m
Ball State - 1.9 m
Northern Illinois - 1.88 m
Central Michigan - 1.6 m
Average - 2.25m

MVC basketball budgets
Bradley - 3.1 m
Northern Iowa - 2.9 m
Evansville - 2.89 m
Loyola - 2.75 m
Valparasio - 2.67 m
Drake - 2.47 m
Illinois State - 2.45 m
Missouri State - 2.28 m
Southern Illinois - 2.24 m
Indiana State - 1.83 m
Average - 2.56

There is a difference there of a quarter million dollars, and I suppose that is concerning but it's not huge. Three programs spend less than 2m in the MAC and 6 under 2.3. Only two programs really fund their program at an "acceptable" level. I consider acceptable 2.5+ in upper mid major conferences. To that extent I suppose MAC basketball is a down grade from the MVC.

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Old 05-16-2017, 03:52 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by UNIdad View Post
I think a few good commercials run frequently in the week leading up to the game could make a difference, maybe not huge, but significant. The entire TV industry is built on ads making people want to watch things.
They do run commercials. It's a niche. NBC Sports runs adds 24/7 for F1 races, their boxing, events, their fishing events, etc... yet they all pull tiny ratings. They are all niche commodities. Sure, market your commodity but you need to look at the ROI of $ spent to advertising $ coming back in through viewers.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:02 PM   #108
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They do run commercials. It's a niche. NBC Sports runs adds 24/7 for F1 races, their boxing, events, their fishing events, etc... yet they all pull tiny ratings. They are all niche commodities. Sure, market your commodity but you need to look at the ROI of $ spent to advertising $ coming back in through viewers.


I would be delighted with that type of promotion for the FCS national championship. Although niche, it certainly seems like it could be built up. I'm not trying to argue about ROI for ESPN, just that in my little naive perspective, a little more promotion for its national championship game sure would be nice.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:36 PM   #109
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MAC HC salaries
Akron - 626 k
Ohio - 620 k
Toledo - 575 k
Bowling Green - 422 k
Kent State - 402 k
Central Michigan - 400 k
Western Michigan - 385 k
Miami (OH) - 353 k
Buffalo - 353 k
Northern Illinois - 300 k
Eastern Michigan - 290 k
Ball State - 275 k
Average - 417k

MVC HC Salaries
Northern Iowa - 1.0m
Bradley - 750 k
Drake - 550 k
Illinois State - 401 k
Missouri State - 396 k
Valparasio - 377 k
Southern Illinois - 350 k
Loyola - 300 k
Indiana State - 296 k
Evansville - 250 k
Average - 467k

All privates are rumors.
-However, Marty is widely known at 250K per tax forms from past years.
-Medved I guess about where most Drake coaches are.
-Valpo is unknown, but I put 377, which is Drew's last year at Valpo. Likely aren't paying their current coach any more than at - if even that.
-Wardle I've seen guessed between 450 and 750. Bradley has the money so 750ish doesn't shock me.
-Loyola is a complete unknown. According to an article from their 2015 CBI run it was "leaked" he was the second highest paid person at Loyola. The article talked about the cost of hosting the games and how much was being spent on athletics vs. academics. In the article it was "leaked" that the average professor at Loyola makes 124k while the average full time HC salary is 137k. Loyola has 11 head coaches but only 6 are full time. That means all 6 are pulling from a pool of 822k. I'm going to guess that Porter isn't making more than 1/3 of all salary paid to HCs. That puts him at about 300k (36%)

You could argue the MVC is a step up in coaching pay as well. Then we remember how far Jake is skewing that right now. Take Jake out of the MVC and the average drops over 60,000 to 407K. If Wardle is closer to 500K than 750k the average drops to 380.

That's a fun game I thought of while posting. Taking the highest and lowest coach out of each conference the average is 396 MVC and 410 MAC.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:39 PM   #110
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I would be delighted with that type of promotion for the FCS national championship. Although niche, it certainly seems like it could be built up. I'm not trying to argue about ROI for ESPN, just that in my little naive perspective, a little more promotion for its national championship game sure would be nice.
You can't take ROI out of it. Sure, I'd love to do a ton of things but it turns out that if it isn't financially smart I probably shouldn't do them. ESPN, now more than ever, is worried about their ROI. They won't drop a 30 second add slot for an even that will draw ratings, or a major commodity wanting to advertise for a 30 second spot for YSU/JMU. That'd be dumb financially. Even more so if they did it 15 times a day.
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:46 PM   #111
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I just don't see the mac as a step up from mvc. Obviously football is different. Also I would feel robbed as a fan if after all these years we do not win a fcs national championship.
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Old 05-16-2017, 09:41 PM   #112
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I would be delighted with that type of promotion for the FCS national championship. Although niche, it certainly seems like it could be built up. I'm not trying to argue about ROI for ESPN, just that in my little naive perspective, a little more promotion for its national championship game sure would be nice.
ROI is only there if the corresponding demographics are there to begin with for a mass audience. It's not, "if you build it, they will come." Claw is right, FCS football is a niche'.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:57 AM   #113
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ROI is only there if the corresponding demographics are there to begin with for a mass audience. It's not, "if you build it, they will come." Claw is right, FCS football is a niche'.
A Niche i happen to like !!!
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:14 PM   #114
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A Niche i happen to like !!!
Agreed, that wasn't meant as a negative. Just pointing out that it's got a bit of a niche' audience.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:06 AM   #115
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Agreed, that wasn't meant as a negative. Just pointing out that it's got a bit of a niche' audience.
I know and I totally agree !!
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Old 05-21-2017, 02:34 PM   #116
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???????????????
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Old 05-22-2017, 10:30 PM   #117
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Just realized something: the MVC is going to be losing a boatload of cash in the upcoming years, as the units from Creighton will be finished in two or three years. So, not only is there more money in the MAC, there will also be less money in the MVC.
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Old 05-22-2017, 10:48 PM   #118
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Just realized something: the MVC is going to be losing a boatload of cash in the upcoming years, as the units from Creighton will be finished in two or three years. So, not only is there more money in the MAC, there will also be less money in the MVC.
pretty sure the MVC gets more units from the basketball fund than the MAC
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Old 05-23-2017, 07:39 AM   #119
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The Valley has been getting more shares because when has the MAC had more than one bid, and when have they had a team win a game in the tournament. The last 5 years the Valley has had 18 to 20 shares (depending on first four, and final four shares)
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:05 AM   #120
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pretty sure the MVC gets more units from the basketball fund than the MAC
Watch it moving forward.

I've already laid out the fact that MAC is, at the very (and I do mean very) least equal to the MVC in terms of quality. I could easily be argued the MAC is a head of the MVC.

Watch what happens with CU and WSU gone. Remember, that Only two non-UNI games have been played in the NCAA tournament by current MVC members (yes, I already moved WSU out) in the last decade (Drake in 08 and Indiana State in 11). The last team, not named UNI, to win a game in the NCAA tournament that will be an MVC member next year was 2007 - SIU.

NCAA shares last 6 years. Indiana State's bid was 2010-2011. Meaning it is paid out between 2012/13-2017/18. That means this is the last year a non-UNI/CU/WSU unit is being paid to this conference. The last CU unit will be paid by 2019. The final WSU unit will be paid by 2023.

There has been no diversity in teams getting bids from the MVC. Sure, someone will continue to get a bid, because that's how it works. How many teams do you trust to win games in the tournament moving forward?
Where are these units coming from in the future? Is it going to be a multibid league? If not, the MVC offers very little the MAC couldn't.

The MAC has had 5 different teams reach the NCAA tournament since 2012.

Akron has 3 bids in the last decade. Averaging 24 wins over the last 12 years and

Kent State has 3 bids, and a top 25 ranking, in the last 10-12 years. They are averaging 23 wins per season since 2000. 5 bids over that time. Wins in multiple NCAA tournaments

Buffalo has been to the NCAA tournament 2 of the last 3 years. Not a historically good team though.

Ohio got rolling under Tim O'Shea. John Groce got them to a S16 in 2012. The coach that replaced Groce, Jim Christian (the guy who got the ball really rolling at Kent State with 4 conference titles in 6 years between 02-08, won 49 games in 2 years and was hired by Boston College. Saul Phillips came in, had a rough first year, but has averaged 22 wins the last two.

I've already laid out the fact the RPI situation is better. Couple UNI with programs like Ohio, Akron, Kent State and multiple bids are more possible than pretty much any combo that MVC can throw out right now. Remember, Illinois State went 17-1 in conference and was 27-6 heading into selection Sunday and didn't get a bid.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:01 PM   #121
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It's hard to stomach, but Claw's post above is just objectively correct.

The MAC with UNI is a better conference than the MVC with UNI. It's sad, but it's true.

There's also more revenue in the MAC across all sports, and the MAC is much better positioned to find a place in the potential massive changes coming with Power 5 conferences than the valley is. FCS/Non-football conferences are going to find themselves in a very awkward place if Power 5 does create this Division Zero thing they're wanting to create.

I love the Valley. I've loved the rivalries we've had and success that's come to our program through the Valley. But those rivalries have left, or fizzled due to lack of success.

And unless we hope to become a Gonzaga type program, that just runs the table every year in conference to make the tournament, it is probably in our best interested to at least look at what a move to the MAC would look like. If they want us, that is.
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Old 05-23-2017, 01:36 PM   #122
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I think the most awkward part of joining the MAC would be the weekday games. I like having other games on TV, but I like ours being on Saturday. Here is what I posted earlier in this thread:

Buffalo has one Tuesday, two Thursday, and one Friday game this year.

Akron has three Tuesday games in a row in November.

Toledo has two Wednesday, two Thursday, and one Friday (with no Saturday games in November).
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:12 PM   #123
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It's hard to stomach, but Claw's post above is just objectively correct.

The MAC with UNI is a better conference than the MVC with UNI. It's sad, but it's true.

There's also more revenue in the MAC across all sports, and the MAC is much better positioned to find a place in the potential massive changes coming with Power 5 conferences than the valley is. FCS/Non-football conferences are going to find themselves in a very awkward place if Power 5 does create this Division Zero thing they're wanting to create.

I love the Valley. I've loved the rivalries we've had and success that's come to our program through the Valley. But those rivalries have left, or fizzled due to lack of success.

And unless we hope to become a Gonzaga type program, that just runs the table every year in conference to make the tournament, it is probably in our best interested to at least look at what a move to the MAC would look like. If they want us, that is.
Yup.

We've been told to think the MAC is "yucky" because they are a bottom tier FBS program that plays weeknight games - which gets them bigger payouts from ESPN. They don't care if no one goes. More people watch those than the FCS playoffs and so ESPN pays for it.

Football it's mostly a lateral move from a competitive standpoint. The MVFC and MAC are about equal, and you could argue that the MVFC is "better" based on computer metrics. In terms of money, exposure, "prestige", etc... it's a massive step up.

Basketball? Same thing. It doesn't have the history of the MVC. It doesn't have the names come through it that the MVC has. However, the last 5-10 years the MAC has really made an effort to step their basketball game up. When researching articles for coaches salaries earlier in the thread I came across a handful from the 09-12 era talking about how low coaching salaries were, who was going to be the program to step up, etc... The last 4-5 years the salaries int he MAC have doubled at almost all of them. Budgets are kept low at a few to offset some other issues they have in their athletic departments, but I think we'll see that trend as well to try to make sure that whatever split happens they can keep football and basketball with the P5 groups.
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Old 05-23-2017, 02:13 PM   #124
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I think the most awkward part of joining the MAC would be the weekday games. I like having other games on TV, but I like ours being on Saturday. Here is what I posted earlier in this thread:

Buffalo has one Tuesday, two Thursday, and one Friday game this year.

Akron has three Tuesday games in a row in November.

Toledo has two Wednesday, two Thursday, and one Friday (with no Saturday games in November).
That would suck. No doubt about it. Attendance would blow. That's where an effort would need to be made by the AD to really push the team/program in the Cedar Falls area extremely hard. Part of the MACtion deal they signed was basically giving up Saturday home games in November. To be honest, I'm not sure there is a MAC game on a Saturday at all this year.
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:43 PM   #125
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That would suck. No doubt about it. Attendance would blow. That's where an effort would need to be made by the AD to really push the team/program in the Cedar Falls area extremely hard. Part of the MACtion deal they signed was basically giving up Saturday home games in November. To be honest, I'm not sure there is a MAC game on a Saturday at all this year.
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Old 05-23-2017, 10:50 PM   #126
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That would suck. No doubt about it. Attendance would blow. That's where an effort would need to be made by the AD to really push the team/program in the Cedar Falls area extremely hard. Part of the MACtion deal they signed was basically giving up Saturday home games in November. To be honest, I'm not sure there is a MAC game on a Saturday at all this year.
Agree that no one wants a ton of weekday games. But the NFL's thursday night games have huge ratings, and sell out every week. It's weird, and people like weird. If we can avoid wednesday nights (CF church night), i think many would be surprised at the turn out.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:16 AM   #127
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Don't be too quick to jump on the NFL ratings. Monday and Thursday night football suffered lower ratings this season. The Walking Dead regularly beats Sunday night football. Granted, the NFL still for the most part is "must see TV", but no longer the ratings juggernaut it used to be. As more people cut cable, go to Hulu, Amazon, etc. there will be less money for the networks to keep paying the same price for the NFL. That could trickle down to the college ranks, especially the G5 conferences. Not saying that moving to the MAC is bad, but it could be chasing something a lot less than the pot of gold everyone thinks it is.

As for weekday games for UNI, I think you would have worse attendance than on Saturdays. There are a lot of junior high and high school sports and activities that would conflict with the casual fan or family attending a UNI football game. Wouldn't be surprised if there were less college kids attending the game during the week. But if all we're looking at is the TV paycheck and paying no attention to the empty seats.....
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:10 AM   #128
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There might be more college kids attending during the week since apparently most of them go home every weekend. Not that it makes any difference revenue wise.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:11 AM   #129
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Weekday football games would need $5 tickets and $3-$5 beer to even hope to draw a crowd.

I remember years ago they played a Thursday night home game on espnu and the draw was awful.

Part of the reason I like football is tailgating for a few hours with friends and family. That isn't happening on a weekday for 90% of the people on a weekday.

I like Fcs playoffs and don't look forward to a season where we dream of making it to the Detroit bowl the day after Xmas. You can bet when tv contracts shrink the big boys will break away from the trash and form their own league. At that point the Mac and valley will be the same thing.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:42 AM   #130
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There might be more college kids attending during the week since apparently most of them go home every weekend. Not that it makes any difference revenue wise.

I hadn't thought about that. I agree that it would be more like for us to get many more students in attendance. That would be a good thing.
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:23 AM   #131
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It wouldn't matter how well you pushed or marketed the team to the Cedar Valley, week night games would be a disaster. There are too many family obligations on the week nights. Our family is hardly ever home year round - fall and spring is when it's the worst. Flag football, swimming lessons, church, basketball practice, baseball practice, school events. There's never a down moment or a slow season anymore and I think that's true for most families.
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:24 AM   #132
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I would also like to add that if you make it harder for people to get to games, you're going to lose not only season ticket holder money, but PSC money as well.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:11 PM   #133
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It wouldn't matter how well you pushed or marketed the team to the Cedar Valley, week night games would be a disaster. There are too many family obligations on the week nights. Our family is hardly ever home year round - fall and spring is when it's the worst. Flag football, swimming lessons, church, basketball practice, baseball practice, school events. There's never a down moment or a slow season anymore and I think that's true for most families.
Are there less events on the weekend that during the week? Man I think plenty of weeks I'd have an easier time getting to games on weekday nights than on the weekend.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:28 PM   #134
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I've not lived close enough to attend games regularly for some time. And I get the lack of desire for weeknight games. But is there any consideration to the quality of opponents we'd be playing on a Thursday night vs. Saturday afternoon? You would have the potential to be playing a Nationally Ranked conference opponent. Maybe a chance to knock someone from whatever they call the non-P5 spot in the major bowl games (or day dream someday UNI might be in the bowl game). Even if it's not a ranked opponent, I'd like to think Northern Illinois or Toledo would be a lot more attractive than South Dakota State. Lastly, we wouldn't be dealing with a competing games in Iowa City or Ames.

Having said all that, like most everything else it comes down to $. If UNI can continue to grow the athletic program by having fewer people attending FB games but getting higher TV dollars, it would be hard to turn down.

And finally, man I feel dirty just typing this because it sounds so much like the puke Creighton and Wichita fans of the last few years.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:40 PM   #135
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Students do a great job of showing up at mid-week basketball games, so I'm guessing football would go well too...
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:50 PM   #136
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I've said this before, but weekday football at UNI would mean the death of the program. Absolutely unsustainable at UNI, and football being such a flagship for support within our AD, that would be very bad news for us.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:57 PM   #137
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Lastly, we wouldn't be dealing with a competing games in Iowa City or Ames.

Indeed. Weeknight games would mean that I would be able to attend more.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:15 PM   #138
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Cannot emphasize this enough: how many out-of-town season ticket holders (or single game ticket purchasers) would still show up on weeknights? I was one of these in the past, and weeknight games would have been a complete deal-breaker for me. Anyone else have a thought on that?

If we had a way to keep football on Saturdays and move our programs to the MAC, I'm totally on board, by the way.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:22 PM   #139
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Default Re: Time to leave

No out of towners will come for weeknight games. Yes weekends are busy as well, but it's a lot easier to cram a three hour football game into a full Saturday than to cram a three hour football game into a week night when people aren't getting home from work until after 5:00 as it is. And it also becomes a "is it worth it" type of thing for busy families.

Saturdays, no matter how busy, people make more of an effort. It's a full experience/event when you throw in tailgating. You're not going to have that draw/pull on week nights, and it will be a heck of a lot easier to just stay home.
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Old 05-24-2017, 04:24 PM   #140
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Default Re: Time to leave

I just looked at 4 Mac schedules randomly:

Ohio - 6 home games. 4 on Saturday

Miami - 6 home games 4 on Saturday

Central Michigan 5 home games, 2 on Saturday (They have a non-conference game on weeknight so they specifically chose that not the conference)

Toledo - 6 home games. 3 on Saturday (They have a non-conference game on weeknight so they specifically chose that not the conference)

Would it really be that different going from 5 home games on Saturdays to 4 home games on Saturdays and 2 on week nights? Hell sell the weekend and weeknight games as seperate packages.
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