I don't want to step on toes . . .

[jman2004]

That is so true. Jake knows better than I do, so there obviously must be some reason when the minutes don't always add up.

Also, for the record, I'm not pitting player vs. player. I'm just stating that if Brooks, one of our strongest leaders, isn't given more rest in a game, I think it'll come back to bite us in big games. I also thought I showed that by looking at his minutes played in some of our losses.

We need to be sharp as a team during this run, and it will not hurt to rest him a few extra minutes a game and trust the rest of the team to function without him.

[Sex Panther...]

I think Josten knows his role. He knows his job is to defend a tough assignment and to hit open shots when he's given the opportunity. He hit 4 of 5 last night from 3. So...he did his job. There's only one ball out there and I think everyone knows that it's Stout and Coleman as the #1 and #2 options, then they look to the perimeter to find Josten, Brown, McKowen, Viet. And that's how the offense works. Koch, Ahelgbe and Jones will get shots too...but only in the framework of the offense or in transition.

We love JJ, I think he's the most improved player on UNI's team (with Viet being a close second) and his role has expanded TREMENDOUSLY from last season...but I love him the most as a player because he knows his role. He's a defensive specialist first...and a scorer second.

Solid post.

Stout and Coleman are options 1 and 1a and everything offensively is and needs to continue to be driven by how the defense reacts to them.

Josten has been outstanding this year at fulfilling his role and has proven he probably should have seen the court more last year. Brooks isn't stealing minutes from him.

Viet has been a great weapon this year when needed. Double down on Coleman and Stout...insert Viet and he'll make you pay. Fail to get a hand in his face when a set play is run for him and he'll make you play. Play zone and pack it in and he'll make you pay. He is a liability on the defensive end when playing extended minutes.

Brooks is an extension of Jake on the floor and gets the ball where it needs to go on offense and is a great defensive player within the scheme. He also has perfected the flop/charge. If Brooks isn't in foul trouble he belongs on the floor 35-40 minutes if the game is close.

jman no need to temper your posts in my opinion. Speak your mind. Nothing wrong with a little debate.

[UNI MadCat]

I don't think that players should be un-criticizable just because they're nice guys or because you or somebody knows them personally. We're not questioning if they're nice guys and we're surely not putting them down. We're talking about the UNI Panther Men's Basketball team.

Jman -- just a little suggestion... If you want people to respect you as a poster on this board, try easing into it rather than starting to ruffle feathers within your first 5 posts. Frankly, I believe it shows a real lack of tact on your part.

If you would have just stopped at your first post on this subject, I would have been fine with it and actually found it pretty inciteful (sp?). God knows I think it is perfectly fine to question coaching. These guys make TONS of money (even coach Jake, having one of the lowest salaries in the league, makes more than probably 90% of us on this board) and take jobs in the public eye and know the public scrutiny they are under. If they can't take it, they won't last.

However, you are absolutely, 100% without a doubt WRONG about criticizing players. Student-athletes bust their butt for the name on the front of that jersey and get no money for it. And especially for the students at the Mid-Major/(frmr)I-AA level, 99.9% have little chance of playing professionally. Again, criticize the coaches all you want but I personally believe the players should be off limits on any message board. And by the way, I have no attachment to a single person on the team or coaching staff.

I just wouldn't come on here and start questioning how folks operate on this board in your first handful of posts.

You aren't dealing with a good ol' boys gang here by any means but there is definitely a camraderie felt on PN that you won't find on any other message board anywhere. I think you'll find most of us to be very inviting, if you approach it the way most would. Your way of innoculating yourself to the board is to criticize how "we" (in general) do things.... this isn't necessarily the best, most well thought out plan of "attack" so to speak if you truly want to accomplish your goal of talking "real" basketball and having people listen.

If your idea of "real" basketball talk is to start questioning 18-22 year olds' abilities and to start criticizing other board members that keep this board afloat... I'd suggest taking your thoughts to another place like Valleytalk... they love that type of poster there.

[Sex Panther...]

I was kind of wondering what jman's other handle actually is to be honest. He seems to know an awful lot about the board dynamic and other posters to be new to the board.

Reveal yourself!!!

[BCPanther]

Very Very well articulated MadCat...

[jman2004]

Okay . . .

A little farther than I thought this thread would go . . . so let me give a little background info on me first, before this great ole friendly bunch of Panther Nation typists start judging me.

To answer Sex Panther first. I am fairly new to this board as a "poster" but have been reading posts on this board for a year. I know how message boards work. I very actively participate in a few professional sports teams message boards, its the only way to really keep on top of whats going down in your favorite organizations. So yes, I know how message boards work. I've been reading this one for a long time, it just isn't until now that I've become a member and begun posting.

Now to everyone else. My post(s) were NEVER intended to ruffle any feathers and reading back at them, I don't really see how they could've. I know I used a lot of words, but the heart of what I was trying to say was that it looks like Brooks needs more than 0-1 minutes of rest during a game. I don't know how anyone can argue that.

Now to UNI MadCat. If you are a head honcho on these boards, I'm truly sorry if I have affended you or are about to, but you crossed a line when responding to me so please let me explain. Not once did I criticize a player on this team. I talked some statistics and I gave some examples of player miscues at time, but not once did I criticize the heart and effort they put forth on the court. I know I said a few things about Brooks, but they really weren't meant to attack him like I think you're assuming they were. Just a few observations I've made. Seriously.

You may feel like it's your feathers that have been ruffled, but now you've kind of slapped me in the face. One of my best friends played for this team recently, left his heart and soul on that court every single game (now he's playing his heart and soul out down Yonder in Austrailia - guess that Panther!) so please don't sit behind your keyboard and call me out on criticizing players. I know and have seen first hand how hard these guys work. Please don't judge me on a few posts you've misread on a message board.

And to say the players should be off limits because they don't get paid anything isn't entirely accurate. I worked two part time jobs to help cut down my college education loans. I've paid UNI a lot of money and I'm still paying UNI a lot of money and will be for the next 15 years. These guys don't pay them anything. They get paid to earn a college education just because they can shoot a basketball better than I can. I fork out money for the Panther Scholarship Club and I forked out money for season tickets in order to watch them play, so excuse me if I don't think you're quite accurate in saying they shouldn't be criticized. That's kind of like saying they don't need a coach. No one's questioning how hard they work or play, but if they make a mistake, are you saying we can't come on here and talk about it?

I'm sorry I ruffled a few feathers, I'm sorry this is my first real thread in posting to (I'm not going away anytime soon though, you'll all learn to love me eventually) but I honestly never did mean to. But if you're asking me to come on here and just make comments like "Man, he played hard tonight" instead of actually talk about some specifics, I can't do that. I watch the games, things bug me, things excite me, a message board should be a place where you can come talk about them.

I just wanted to talk a little UNI basketball. If you aren't going to take me seriously because of a few rants on a message board, I guess that's your decision. I didn't really mean to cause this fiery reaction though.

(I guess this was the purpose of this icon huh?)

[9YRPLAN]

we are talking about a team that plays in cedar falls, iowa. everyone is going to know someone close to the team, or know someone personally.

dont apologize for posting your feelings, and dont apologize for disagreeing with anyone. that is what a message board is for. i have been openly critical of players I know personally.

plus, what fun is it if everyone agrees on everything?

['70 Grad]

I don't see anything shrill about your posts. You have something to say & an explanation. Sounds pretty adult. Occasionally some others have been much more emotional. Its just a pretty positive/optimistic board.

For the stats you sighted - 1) Brooks' min. correlate more with the fact that we were either trying to catch up most of the game, or we're in the game the whole time. I think it is this situation more than the eventual win/loss that dictated the rotation in each game. (Of course, trailing big is usually connected to a loss.) 2) Eric was sick, but Grant's min. relative to Kock were affected the same way vs CU. Jake talked about using his starters more than he wanted to after the CU game. If Brooks' team had had the lead that Nate's team did, I think you would have seen him get more rest. If the starters don't get us back to 39-37 we don't have a chance anyway. Jake said he was afraid that the gap would have gotten worse with subs.

Please keep posting your thoughts. They could be right half the time! (More than me!)

One Game At A Time

[Sex Panther...]

I have ZERO problems with anything you posted even though I disagree with some of it.

I don't have a problem with you giving your thoughts on players as it relates to basketball...you crossed no line. They are big boys, they can take it and they aren't spending their time reading this board I can assure you.

My "reveal yourself" comment was my smartass personality getting the better of me. I should have used extra emoticons and the sarcasm font. If you have been lurking on this board you realize that the love/hate realtionship with UNI's starting point guard is halfway through its 4th year on here. I fall on the nothin' but love side of that equation.

I love what Josten has done this year. After the Iowa game I was on the Hawk message board and someone basically made the comment that UNI's guards couldn't carry the jocks of the Iowa guards. My reply was that if there is jockstrap carrying to be done someone better get Haluska a back brace because Josten's balls are HUGE! I love JJ.

Keep posting...I'm not an "insider" to the board and can't issue an official welcome...but welcome.

[4N6]

I'm with Jman

Although I don't agree with much of what you said, you have all the right in the world to speak your peace. I believe that message boards are for voicing opinions. It's obvious you are a fan Jman ... I for one, thought your posts were well-said and opinionated (as they should be.)

[Matt Trump]

This is a great discusssion!!!

[r54uni]

I personally think Brooksy lit jman up for about 50 back in the day and this is just payback. Coach Jake knows what he's doing with this team - maybe more than even we know??????? If he thinks Brooks needs to play 40 minutes to win then so be it- who are we to argue. You can't say hey look he played 31 minutes and we won. A lot more goes into winning a basketball game. Be happy with the wins - be pissed about the losses - but keep backing the Cats!!!!!!!!

[UNI MadCat]

Wow Jman, way to completly miss the point of my post. I didn't "cross the line" at all when I responded to you. I'm sorry you feel that way but I honestly feel if you re-read everything it was more me giving a suggestion that you were about to embark down a road where you yourself were going to cross the line with many posters, and it was my, perhaps too long-winded (its my nature, sorry) way of cautioning you.

AGAIN -- I thought your original post was spot on. It was a criticism of coach Jake and his staff and I believe one that has some merit.

However, YOU are the one that said that players were criticizable... if you dont believe me check your own post where you said it or my post where I quoted you on it.

I wasn't responding to the content of what you said about particular players, I was responding to your statement about how you believe that we should be able to criticize players. And, as I clearly pointed out numerous times, I strongly disagree with said statement.

You said yourself, you spend a lot of time on message boards for professional teams -- so do I. That's an entirely different ball game my friend. Those men make mega millions of dollars and being subject to criticism completly comes with the territory. Perhaps that is what you are used to but that doesn't fly here, IMHO.

Again, I never had anything against what you said in your original post --- hence why I said:

If you would have just stopped at your first post on this subject, I would have been fine with it and actually found it pretty inciteful (sp?).

I don't know how much more clearly you want me to spell it out.

No, I'm not a head honcho by any means, but I do believe in sticking up for people that are like my pseudo "Panther family" when I feel someone is unfairly slamming them for no reason.

Sorry but by saying you want to talk "real" basketball indicates that you don't think too highly of the b-ball talk you do see on this board -- that's a slam to these posters.

And you further cemented your "view" of the posters when you said this...

I come on here wanting to talk basketball, real basketball, what's really obviously wrong with this team, things that obviously really work with this team, etc, and instead, you're kind of forced to choose your words wisely because you don't want to hurt anybody's feelings.

Thanks for noticing the same thing I kind of did.

I'm sorry that you have a problem with this board b/c you think it sucks to be too nice. Frankly so do I at times -- but I pick and choose my moments to point this out and I definitely try to provide a balance and more importantly, I wouldn't start out my posting "career" on the negative side. So, in general, realize that we agree with some thoughts, I just feel like there is a time and place to express them.

Perhaps it would help to think of it in terms of a wife or girlfriend. Sure, there are probably things that drive you nuts about them... but do you tell them within the first month of dating?? I wouldn't think so. Same holds true here, I believe.

Again, just so we are 100% clear... the only two points I was trying to make were...
1. Ease into your posts on the board before you start assessing other poster's "negatives" (which, ironically, in this case, are basically a positive trait).
2. I didnt feel you were criticizing players but you said it yourself... you feel that they are criticizable and so it is safe to assume you feel like in the future you COULD criticize them and I would caution you that they aren't... not just b/c people on this board have "connections" to them but, they aren't like the millionaire athletes that you talk about in the pro sports message boards you so often frequent. These are 18-22 year olds who make no money to play for the school they represent and whose primary goal is to obtain a college education.

End of rant. You'll find people like me just like to type for typing sake sometimes I suppose. In truth, I dont really harbor ill feelings towards anyone. I do like to mix it up on boards, true, but I forget about it by the next topic.

Welcome to the board. As we've clearly established, there are a lot of good people here. Many who I've had the opportunity to meet and they're just as great in person.

[MGLD Panther]

Well you see thats a problem w/ this board....seems as if everyone is either "good friends of a coach and he is just a great man, baby-sat a player back in the day, etc, work in the AD with someone and he/she is just a wonderful person" and cant help themselves. Never seen anything like it on any msg board before.

If it upsets you that much then stay away! It is pretty simple! Unless you are being held hostage somewhere and you are being forced to log on to Panthernation with a gun to your head. Then by all means continue to log in!

[jman2004]

Okay MadCat, I do want to step back a ways. Mostly because we're all Panther fans (and there are too few in Iowa) so I don't want to get in knock-down drag out fights with other Panther fans. Plus, I may and probably will meet you someday at a game or a bar or what not and being both Panther fans, it'd be nice to have a civilized conversation with you.

So I may have misread your post a tad, but what I didn't like about it and still will never agree with is the players being criticized. You didn't mention anything about the fact that in a way, these players DO get paid. They go to school for free. Our starting five doesn't pay one cent to go to college. I didn't get to go to school for free. Now I'm paying lots of money to watch these guys play. I feel like I do deserve the right to critique them from time to time when they do a few boneheaded things on the court.

Back to my initial argument, which I guess I'm not going to back down from. I think at times this year Coach Jake has let Brooks play too long, I think at times he's let him do too much, and it's cost us in a few games. I think it wouldn't hurt to put some trust in our young guys because they're going to need it next year and I would like it if Coach Jake didn't have to feel as if he needed Brooks in at all times of the game. Whether we're trailing or not. I guess I don't mean to really criticize Brooks, I like how he controls this team 90% of the time. At times I've been frustrated with his play this year though (more so than a lot of other players on the team) and I think my frustration is because in those particular moments I think he's been overworked. If he's struggling getting the ball up the court, if he's thrown two turnovers in two trips down the court leading to opposing baskets, sit him for a second, let Kwadzo run the point, then put Brooks right back in. Trust me, it wouldn't hurt.

And to r54uni, I've never played Brooksy in basketball. I'm just a smidge older than he is.

Thanks for the welcome MadCat, here's to hopefully some many insightful conversations about all things UNI Basketball in the future, and good luck tonight against the big tall trees from Indiana State.