Grant Stout-MVC Player of the Year

[ColoradoPanther]

NJ, I think your points are valid (and I hope no one on this board is actually questioning Benny's contributions this year or over four years), but the purpose of the thread to me is who should/would/could win POY. That question takes into account how the voters would perceive POY criteria.

Can someone help give a few examples of preseason-type POY picks, who ended up being hounded so much by defenses that their raw numbers didn't live up to the hype, but in the end still won POY? I'm curious about any league/level/sport. I think that if Reddick was held to 15 ppg because teams triple-teamed him constantly, he would simply win admiration but not necessarily awards. Awards seem to go to guys with #s, not leaders. Someone help prove me wrong?

That said, I'm glad Benny's numbers are exactly where they are. His unselfish play is maybe the only reason the team has 21 wins. Give the POY to anyone else, I'd rather have the 21 w's, and I hope that's how he feels.

[jegbomb52]

If I had a vote right now it goes to Stout, oh, and just for the record, if it comes down to stats and stats alone the race between Stout and Jacobson is not even close. Stout blows him out of the water, could we do without Jacobson? No absolutely not. Man, they should just dump the award this year and give it to the "UNI Panthers"!

[NJ Panther]

I've posted this before, but Darren Brooks' numbers went down last year for this very reason and he still won MVC POY. JWilliams stats went down at Duke his senior year and he was still Mr. ESPN and the 2nd pick in the draft. Julius Hodge's scoring average was lower his last season then the previous two. Thats just off the top of my head and confirmed statistically and I'm sure there are many more out there.

[CF Panther]

OK, I've said Stout was my frontrunner for this award for at least a couple of months now. Statistically, he is the clear favorite. Jacobson brings a lot to the table in a game and without him, we don't have 20+ wins this year. That being said, he simply is not the dominating player that many here like to make him out to be. A very good player, yes; dominating no. JJ Redick is getting r@ped every night out, yet still finds a way to drop 30 points. He has unlimited range and simply finds a way to get open. B.J. is not that type of player. To think otherwise is vastly overestimating. This really is not meant as a slam on Jacobson, but more as a reality-check for a lot of posters on Panthernation. This type of forum is not meant simply for the "Rah-Rah, Go team go..." posts, but also for honest posts...

Let the crucifixion begin...

[pantherfan4ever]

Conference player of the year to date has got to be Stout over Jacobson. Jacobson may be "leading" right now, but it would only be due to his name. He's a great player, but awards like this should go to the player who night in and night out puts up the stats and plays for a winning team. Stout has been consistently coming in with a double-double or close to it in points and rebounds and comes up with a block or five each night. Now is the time for a player to win an award of this magnitude, and if Jacobson goes on a streak like he is capable of at this time of the season, he very well might win over Stout...

The example of Brooks is a VERY good example. His numbers seemed to go down his senior year, and yet he still won the award... why? it was because the people voting knew how much he did for that team that did not land on the stat page.

That is why you can't look at just the stat numbers.. Stout and Jacobson Do equally important things on the court, they just do them in TOTALLY different ways and in different areas... (Stout in boards, blocks, and scoring... and Jacobson in scoring, distributing, taking the double and triple teams, making smart decisions and running the offense a lot of the time)...

but when you are talking about player of the year and you have 2 players that are seemingly both deserving, you HAVE to give it to the one who is the team leader of the best team in the conference, and there is no argument about who is the Panthers leader... EVERYONE on the team will say it is Jacobson.

Since some of you want to look at stats, here are the stats for you.....

Team Stats:

Stout:
Scoring - 2nd
Assists - 6th
Steals - 2nd
Rebounding - 1st
Blocking - 1st

Jacobson:
Scoring - 1st
Assists - 1st
Steals - 1st
Rebounding - 3rd
Blocking - 4th

For those of you who look purely at the stat lines, I'm not sure how you could say Stout deserves it over Jacobson. WITHOUT taking stats into consideration, I couldn't make the call either way for one of them.. they are nearly identical when it comes to their presense on the team in the stat collumn... Both play a huge role offensively (both score well and Jacobson runs the offense a lot of the time, drawing double teams and kicking it around to open players... and Stout posts up and trys to stretch the offense at times with his nice range for a big man, and defensively (they do this in totally different ways since one is a guard who wants to pressure the ball and get the guard to make bad passes/decisions and one is a post up player who wants to block shots and change shots)

so, then you look at what they do outside of the stat collumn and Jacobson gets the edge since he is the team leader and takes on double and triple teams every game, which frees everyone else up on the team.

P.S. I love that we have 2 guys so deserving of player of the year that we are debating it!!!!! This is a very good "problem" to have GO GRANT, BENNY AND THE REST OF THE PANTHERS!

[CF Panther]

The example of Brooks is a VERY good example. His numbers seemed to go down his senior year, and yet he still won the award... why? it was because the people voting knew how much he did for that team that did not land on the stat page.

Brooks' numbers went down for the Saluki's last year, but they were still impressive. Add to that the fact that he still had the best numbers on clear and away the best team in the league. Very different scenario than this whole Jacobson & Stout situation.

When all is said and done, both guys definitely deserve the award, but you cant look at strictly numbers. stout is VERY consistant in the stat line, but Jacobson (as with Most Guards in college bball) dont have the opportunity to get in the stat collumn as much since they rarely have the height or play inside enough to end up in the rebound or block collumn..(remember, the stat collumn is made up of points, assists, rebounds, blocks, and steals.. post players have a much higher chance of being in all of those areas (with exception of maybe assists) and standing out in the stat collumn than a guard does. most of a great guards presense is felt when they are taking on double and triple teams and handling the pressure every play while trying to run the offense and make smart decisions.

This whole quote pretty much backs up the fact that Stout should be the frontrunner for this award. He has the STATS to back up his play. Jacobson has probably been just as important, but where are the stats? Your guard vs. Post scenario forgot to mention something very important: Guards handle the ball much more frequently than post players. Therefore they have more chances to shoot, score, pass, drive and get to the line, etc. Not to mention a guard has a significant advantage in regards to chances for steals in a basketball game. While talking about "things that don't show up in the scorebook", what about the presence that Stout has downlow? That has altered quite a few shots this year, but it doesn't show up either. We can go on and on here, but the reality is that a lot of us are going to continue to disagree about this issue. In the end, however; this is a very good thing for UNI.

[CF Panther]

I think stats are important, but there are many things that are equally important that don't end up in the stat line.. But since there are so many people that look at stats, here are the stats for you.....

Team Stats:

Stout:
Scoring - 2nd
Assists - 6th
Steals - 2nd
Rebounding - 1st
Blocking - 1st

Jacobson:
Scoring - 1st
Assists - 1st
Steals - 1st
Rebounding - 3rd
Blocking - 4th

For those of you who look purely at the stat lines, I'm not sure how you could say Stout deserves it over Jacobson. WITHOUT taking stats into consideration, I couldn't make the call either way for one of them.. they are nearly identical when it comes to their presense on the team in the stat collumn...

so, then you look at what they do outside of the stat collumn and Jacobson gets the edge since he is the team leader and takes on double and triple teams every game, which frees everyone else up on the team.

P.S. I love that we have 2 guys so deserving of player of the year that we are debating it!!!!! This is a very good "problem" to have GO GRANT, BENNY AND THE REST OF THE PANTHERS!

Team stats are an OK judge of how the season going. However, this is not the team MVP, it is the MVC MVP. That means that they use the stats put up against the rest of the league. Jacobson is first in a host of categories for our team, but the categories that Stout ranks highly on the team; he also ranks highly in the league. Just something to think about...

[pantherfan4ever]

Team stats are an OK judge of how the season going. However, this is not the team MVP, it is the MVC MVP. That means that they use the stats put up against the rest of the league. Jacobson is first in a host of categories for our team, but the categories that Stout ranks highly on the team; he also ranks highly in the league. Just something to think about...

Actually when they look for the MVP of the MVC they arent just matching up stats of players from each team and then picking... they look more at what the player does for his team than matching up their stats to players of other teams. If they simply matched up players stats then you would see good players on bad teams win the award... and you just dont see that....

This is probably my last post on this topic, as I really wouldnt care who gets the POY award as long as it is a Panther! I am not saying i think your opinion is way off based, i just see if differently. I dont think they simply match up stats that end up on paper and when it comes down to it and they have to pick, I truely believe that it will come down to our 2 panthers and they will have a very hard time selecting one of them. I also believe it will come down to who is the team leader and they will have to look at the things that dont end up on the stats page.

[AmesPanther]

If I had a vote right now it goes to Stout, oh, and just for the record, if it comes down to stats and stats alone the race between Stout and Jacobson is not even close. Stout blows him out of the water, could we do without Jacobson? No absolutely not. Man, they should just dump the award this year and give it to the "UNI Panthers"!

Are you drunk? Maybe if you count rebounding Stout blows Jacobson out of the water, even then it's not really blown up out of water.

If the game is on the line I want Ben taking the shot, that alone means he is the winner in my book.

[ColoradoPanther]

I saw some anecdotal conference "stats" above that was slightly skewed, so I pulled some numbers from MVC's site. Includes MVC games only.

Points/game
1 Blake Ahearn (MSU) 16.9
2 Tony Young (SIU) 15.9
3 Johnny Mathies (CU) 14.5
4 Matt Webster (UE) 14.4
5 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 14.2
6 Marcellus Sommerville (BU) 14.2
7 Grant Stout (UNI) 13.9
8 Jason Holsinger (UE) 13.6
9 David Moss (INS) 13.6
10 Anthony Tolliver (CU) 13.2

Rebound/game
1 Grant Stout (UNI) 131 9.4
2 Randal Falker (SIU) 112 8
3 Patrick O'Bryant (BU) 110 7.9
4 Eric Coleman (UNI) 109 7.8
5 PJ Couisnard (WSU) 98 7
6 Paul Miller (WSU) 94 6.7
23 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 59 4.2

Assists - TO - Ratio (sorted by total assists)
1 Daniel Ruffin (BU) 83 40 2.1
2 Al Stewart (DU) 62 52 1.2
3 Josh Dotzler (CU) 61 38 1.6
4 Bryan Mullins (SIU) 51 35 1.5
5 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 51 38 1.3
27 Grant Stout (UNI) 23 22 1.0

Blocks
1 Patrick O'Bryant (BU) 41
2 Grant Stout (UNI) 33
3 Randal Falker (SIU) 28
4 Greg Dilligard (ILS) 26
5 Bradley Strickland (UE) 24
36 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 3

Steals
1 Bryan Mullins (SIU) 41
2 Tony Bennett (BU) 30
3 Dana Ford (ILS) 29
4 Johnny Mathies (CU) 29
5 Tony Young (SIU) 28
6 Josh Dotzler (CU) 26
7 Gabriel Moore (INS) 22
8 Nathan Bilyeu (MSU) 22
9 Daniel Ruffin (BU) 21
10 Al Stewart (DU) 19
11 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 19
21 Grant Stout (UNI) 14

FG %
1 Tony Boyle (SIU) 63.2%
2 J.J. Tauai (BU) 60.0%
3 Mark Kruse (ILS) 60.0%
4 Anthony Tolliver (CU) 58.7%
5 Shane Laurie (MSU) 57.8%
6 Eric Coleman (UNI) 56.8%
7 Grant Stout (UNI) 56.7%
75 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 35.2%

Neither player in Top10 for FT% or 3pFG%.


Make your own judgments. One thing in Jacobson's favor, no one from any team is stands out with eye-popping stats. This would seem to increase intangibles such as leader, sportsman, and opponents' fear in voters' minds.

My vote in this case goes sentimental w/ the Sr leader Jacobson.

Personally, my least favorite category is Minutes/Game, where the Panthers "dominate" with 3 players in the top 4. (For the record, Jacobson is #1 in that one.) The Dance is a long ways away, I hope we still have fresh legs by then.

[DWadle1983]

I saw some anecdotal conference "stats" above that was slightly skewed, so I pulled some numbers from MVC's site. Includes MVC games only.

Points/game
1 Blake Ahearn (MSU) 16.9
2 Tony Young (SIU) 15.9
3 Johnny Mathies (CU) 14.5
4 Matt Webster (UE) 14.4
5 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 14.2
6 Marcellus Sommerville (BU) 14.2
7 Grant Stout (UNI) 13.9
8 Jason Holsinger (UE) 13.6
9 David Moss (INS) 13.6
10 Anthony Tolliver (CU) 13.2

Rebound/game
1 Grant Stout (UNI) 131 9.4
2 Randal Falker (SIU) 112 8
3 Patrick O'Bryant (BU) 110 7.9
4 Eric Coleman (UNI) 109 7.8
5 PJ Couisnard (WSU) 98 7
6 Paul Miller (WSU) 94 6.7
23 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 59 4.2

Assists - TO - Ratio (sorted by total assists)
1 Daniel Ruffin (BU) 83 40 2.1
2 Al Stewart (DU) 62 52 1.2
3 Josh Dotzler (CU) 61 38 1.6
4 Bryan Mullins (SIU) 51 35 1.5
5 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 51 38 1.3
27 Grant Stout (UNI) 23 22 1.0

Blocks
1 Patrick O'Bryant (BU) 41
2 Grant Stout (UNI) 33
3 Randal Falker (SIU) 28
4 Greg Dilligard (ILS) 26
5 Bradley Strickland (UE) 24
36 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 3

Steals
1 Bryan Mullins (SIU) 41
2 Tony Bennett (BU) 30
3 Dana Ford (ILS) 29
4 Johnny Mathies (CU) 29
5 Tony Young (SIU) 28
6 Josh Dotzler (CU) 26
7 Gabriel Moore (INS) 22
8 Nathan Bilyeu (MSU) 22
9 Daniel Ruffin (BU) 21
10 Al Stewart (DU) 19
11 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 19
21 Grant Stout (UNI) 14

FG %
1 Tony Boyle (SIU) 63.2%
2 J.J. Tauai (BU) 60.0%
3 Mark Kruse (ILS) 60.0%
4 Anthony Tolliver (CU) 58.7%
5 Shane Laurie (MSU) 57.8%
6 Eric Coleman (UNI) 56.8%
7 Grant Stout (UNI) 56.7%
75 Ben Jacobson (UNI) 35.2%

Neither player in Top10 for FT% or 3pFG%.


Make your own judgments. One thing in Jacobson's favor, no one from any team is stands out with eye-popping stats. This would seem to increase intangibles such as leader, sportsman, and opponents' fear in voters' minds.

My vote in this case goes sentimental w/ the Sr leader Jacobson.

Personally, my least favorite category is Minutes/Game, where the Panthers "dominate" with 3 players in the top 4. (For the record, Jacobson is #1 in that one.) The Dance is a long ways away, I hope we still have fresh legs by then.

If UNI ties for first with somebody other than SIU, or wins the MVC outright, a UNI player will be named POY. (Tony Young averaging more points per game might sway some voters). Even if UNI finishes tied with SIU, I think a UNI player will probably win POY because UNI's overall season (MVC and non-conference) is better than any other MVC team. As Colorado said, no one in the MVC really stands out statistically and that's why intangibles may decide the race.

I think where we may see the depth issue come up is the MVC Tournament and a possible 3 games in 3 days. Hopefully, Erik Crawford will be able to go 20-25 minutes by then and that would help reduce everybody else's minutes.

My concern about the NCAA Tournament won't be the minutes being played because by the first game, UNI will have had a number of days off, and they're not having to travel to another location for a second round game, but if Coleman or Stout were to get into foul trouble. Depending on who UNI would play, it could leave them awfully small compared to who they're playing and making it difficult to defend and rebound. That happened to some extent in the Creighton game at Omaha.

[Hime_Peterson]

In my opinion, nobody who shoots 35% from the floor deserves to be the Player of the Year unless they are some sort of absolute lock-down defender and even then, 35% is 35%.

As for the "drawing the attention of the defense" argument, guys like JJ Redick and Adam Morrison have seen everything in the book, and their percentages don't go down. Kyle Korver also always shot right up close to 50%.

This is not an indictment of Jacobson as I am a fan of his--I hope he goes off tonight. But Stout is the better player, and will have a chance to make a lot more cash playing the game someday.

Either way, UNI is lucky to have both of them and the funny thing is, we're not talking about their most physically gifted player, which is Coleman.

[panther2317]

That award should not be the 'leading scorer' award. It's the Most VALUABLE Player Award. The player the means the most to their team. Stats are a part of that, but even if someone like Benny J is having a bad shooting day...there still isn't anyone who I'd rather have take the last shot for the Panthers than him. He's the straw that stirs the Panthers drink. I think this is a group of guys who really epitomize the word 'team'. They are all so very important to what UNI wants to do each and every night the play a game. They are all the heart and soul of this team...but Benny J is what makes them 'go'.

[NorthernIowaBacker]

I agree with the points about D's being designed to stop #12 but that is difficult to quantify.

Really??? The Junior High kids I coached who went to games last year and come to games this year can easily pick up on what defenses and techniques are being used to slow Ben down.

If you watch the games, its very easy to tell. Quantify? Yeah it's also hard to quantify that an offensive lineman brings anything to a football team. You would quantify it the same way you do with an O-line not giving up sacks or helping an offense put up 500 yards.

(Ben getting doubled off ball = how many open shots for others?)

Or it's also hard to quantify how many shots Jon Godfread created from his amazing full body screens. Man I miss that guy.

[NJ Panther]

[QUOTE=CF Panther] JJ Redick is getting r@ped every night out, yet still finds a way to drop 30 points. QUOTE]
I have not seen enough Duke games to know if Redick is getting help from the stripes but he sure does get to the line way more then Ben. Redick has shot 174 FTs, while Jacobson has shot 96. Morrison has shot an even more cray 192. Both of those players get 25% of their points off of FT's. Just an observation, might mean nothing because there are various reasons players get to the line a lot. I just have a feeling Morrison and Redick get their share of love, but again have no evidence of that being the case. And other then fact checking I'm done with this thread