Interesting article by Bilas on ESPN.com

[pantherfan4ever]

Bilas talking about Upsets and Mid Majors..

Mid-Majors:

"Mid-major: I don't know where the term came from or who coined it, but to me, mid-major speaks to resources and conference affiliation; it says nothing about whether a team can play or not.

Wichita State is a mid-major, yet has an enrollment of more than 15,000, which makes it over twice as big as Duke, which clearly is a major. Similarly, Oregon State has over 16,000 students, but would probably lose to Wichita State if the two teams played this year. (I say probably because, even though Wichita State is the better and more consistent team, there are many teams that can play at a very high level for one game or stretch of games). School size has nothing to do with the terms major and mid-major. It has more to do with the size, strength, and resources of the conferences in which the teams play."


Upsets:
"Upset: This is the most incorrectly used term in basketball.

North Dakota State beating Marquette is an upset. Even though the Bison beat Wisconsin last year, it is still a surprise for them to beat Marquette on the road.

Bradley beating Rutgers and DePaul is not an upset. Vermont beating Boston College is an upset. Oral Roberts beating Kansas at Kansas is an upset.

However, Northern Iowa beating Iowa State is not an upset. Northern Iowa was in the NCAA Tournament last year and Iowa State has not been good for the last couple of years.

Southern Illinois beating Virginia Tech is not an upset. Virginia Tech was not a tournament team last year, while Southern Illinois was and the Salukis are very good again this season. Winthrop beating Mississippi State is not an upset. The Eagles were in the NCAA Tournament and came within an eyelash of beating Tennessee.

Missouri State beating Wisconsin may be a mild upset, but is not really surprising. The Bears are very good, and are capable of beating almost anyone on a given day. Would the Bears be a top-five team in the Big Ten? Perhaps not, but they would not be an easy out for any team in that league.

Wichita State winning at LSU and Syracuse might be termed mild upsets, because the ironically-named Shockers won on the road in difficult environments. However, the Shockers were a Sweet 16 team last year, while Syracuse needed to win the Big East Tournament to make the NCAA field and LSU has been victim to early-season upsets over the past few years."

[panther2317]

So...is he trying to say that our wins vs. BCS schools are to be expected now? Is he trying to minimize the Valley's early success vs. BCS schools? Minimize all you want...WSU is #4 in the country and I think the conference RPI is #3. If the Valley schools keep winning non-conference games...those two things shouldn't change all that much once the Valley season begins.

[Beaker416]

I don't read into that as minimizing our success. I think he's essentially saying Southern Illinois beating Minnesota wasn't an upset as Minnesota kind of sucks. However, say Penn State beats Wichita State then that would be an upset and Penn State should get props on their resume. Likewise Indiana State should get props for beating Butler. From the way I'm reading it is don't look at what conference the teams are from, just whether or not they're good.

[KaBullseye15]

i think hes just saying its time to recognize mid-majors beating BCS schools isnt that surprising. times in the past all those wins would have been upsets like us beating ISU and Iowa, now its a common thing. These teams beating duke, NC and etc. would be big but beating middle to upper level BCS conference teams is not a shock. all its saying is the only difference in our programs is available money, and with that comes the ability to recruit big time players out of high school but hes not saying we cant compete or that its surprising when we do.

[joecooll6]

So...is he trying to say that our wins vs. BCS schools are to be expected now? Is he trying to minimize the Valley's early success vs. BCS schools? Minimize all you want...WSU is #4 in the country and I think the conference RPI is #3. If the Valley schools keep winning non-conference games...those two things shouldn't change all that much once the Valley season begins.

I think its a compliment.

[CincyPanther88]

I think its a compliment.

It definitely is. But, it may be coming to the point where the Valley is expected to beat teams from the BCS conferences. For many years now Valley teams have been underdogs. On occasion a Valley team would beat a BCS school and while it was nice, it was regarded as an upset. The conference wasn't - and still in a few cases isn't - respected. Then in the last several years with the improvement of the conference, respect has grown by leaps and bounds. And that's terrific but it may be at the point where Valley teams are expected to hang with or beat BCS schools. Then we'll be in the same boat as them. When a WSU beats a Syracuse, the RPI doesn't go up any more because it's expected that WSU beats Syracuse. It's a good victory but it's just another win as far as the pundits and RPI is concerned. Five years from now, UNI beating Iowa at home or on the road may be commonplace and if we lose, it's no longer a "good loss" and it hurts us instead of helps us. Now we are the hunted and when a Valley team loses on the road, it will be like Washington St. beating Gonzaga. Fans will storm the court. It will be a lead story on SportsCenter. It will be a nice problem to have but we may lose the romance of a David beating Goliath.

[DWadle1983]

So...is he trying to say that our wins vs. BCS schools are to be expected now? Is he trying to minimize the Valley's early success vs. BCS schools? Minimize all you want...WSU is #4 in the country and I think the conference RPI is #3. If the Valley schools keep winning non-conference games...those two things shouldn't change all that much once the Valley season begins.

I agree with Joe, I think it's a compliment. Bilas is saying that good "mid-major" teams beating bad BCS teams aren't upsets, and is saying that these type of wins should be expected, and he's right. I read Bilas as giving "mid-majors" deserved respect.

If we want to focus on someone it's Digger Phelps. He has still trashed "mid-majors", saying at the start of the season that we would see fewer wins by "mid-majors" against BCS conference teams because BCS conference schools "looked past" schools like George Mason. Wichita State fans should ask Digger how that prediction has worked out.

Cincy, the RPI isn't going to be effected because WSU beating Syracuse is more expected. The number is based on beating a quality school at their place. It might be less likely to be considered as good of a win, or a quality loss, because of expectations but the numbers won't change.

Being perceived as more equal to BSC conference schools might help scheduling BSC schools at home, although many don't like to play tough road games period, and will certainly help telling the Jamie Pollard's that they can stick their plan to "help" UNI with the Des Moines tournanment.

But, being perceived as pretty equal will help recruiting. Kids won't look at going to a MVC as that much of a drop-off as playing at a Big Ten. It used to be that way for the MVC thirty-five plus years ago.

[SteinPizza]

It definitely is. But, it may be coming to the point where the Valley is expected to beat teams from the BCS conferences. For many years now Valley teams have been underdogs. On occasion a Valley team would beat a BCS school and while it was nice, it was regarded as an upset. The conference wasn't - and still in a few cases isn't - respected. Then in the last several years with the improvement of the conference, respect has grown by leaps and bounds. And that's terrific but it may be at the point where Valley teams are expected to hang with or beat BCS schools. Then we'll be in the same boat as them. When a WSU beats a Syracuse, the RPI doesn't go up any more because it's expected that WSU beats Syracuse. It's a good victory but it's just another win as far as the pundits and RPI is concerned. Five years from now, UNI beating Iowa at home or on the road may be commonplace and if we lose, it's no longer a "good loss" and it hurts us instead of helps us. Now we are the hunted and when a Valley team loses on the road, it will be like Washington St. beating Gonzaga. Fans will storm the court. It will be a lead story on SportsCenter. It will be a nice problem to have but we may lose the romance of a David beating Goliath.

Isn't this what the Valley should be striving for? While the "David vs. Goliath" thing is a nice, romantic notion, it shouldn't be a desired state for the conference as a whole, IMO. I like an underdog win as much as the next guy, but I'd like to see the Valley evolve to the point where it's considered on an equal footing to the Big Ten, Big Twelve, etc (maybe some wishful thinking, but not totally unrealistic). The underdog should never strive to stay that way. I don't think being in the "same boat" as the BCS schools is a bad thing at all, in terms of national prestige, exposure, etc. Don't think for a second that RH, Coach Jake, etc. wouldn't love to take that all the way to the bank.

Cincy, I don't think you were being overly negative towards all this, so not trying to misconstrue your post too critically. In general, I think people get too caught up in the romantic notion of being the underdog.

[CincyPanther88]

Isn't this what the Valley should be striving for? While the "David vs. Goliath" thing is a nice, romantic notion, it shouldn't be a desired state for the conference as a whole, IMO. I like an underdog win as much as the next guy, but I'd like to see the Valley evolve to the point where it's considered on an equal footing to the Big Ten, Big Twelve, etc (maybe some wishful thinking, but not totally unrealistic). The underdog should never strive to stay that way. I don't think being in the "same boat" as the BCS schools is a bad thing at all, in terms of national prestige, exposure, etc. Don't think for a second that RH, Coach Jake, etc. wouldn't love to take that all the way to the bank.

Cincy, I don't think you were being overly negative towards all this, so not trying to misconstrue your post too critically. In general, I think people get too caught up in the romantic notion of being the underdog.

We should be striving for this, Stein. And perhaps I didn't express myself as clearly as I could have. I guess what I was trying to say is that as the Valley improves and gets to be on a par or close to the BCS conferences, we are going to get more articles like what Bilas wrote. That's good but when Valley schools beat BCS schools, people aren't going to treat it as an aberration any more and aren't going to make a big deal of it. And Valley fans should realize that just because more people are going to treat a UNI victory over Iowa more nonchalant, it doesn't mean that we aren't getting our due respect.

Guys like Packer and Phelps aren't going to be swayed very easily so we should be able to have that chip on our shoulder as far as they are concerned. But more and more people are starting to come around. And they are going to start expecting that Valley Schools beat BCS schools so they aren't going to treat it like Chaminade beating Virginia and we shouldn't be upset when they don't treat it like that.