Officiating

[in_the_stands]

Re: Officiating

i totally agree with all your comments...that has just been my experience down here in the "no such thing as fouls land". That and there is no such thing as a carry anymore..but i think we all knew already.

I recently watched a player dribble head-high with no call.

[in_the_stands]

Re: Officiating

Officiating does not get worse with 3 people out there as it is so much easier with an extra person on the court. With only 2 people you can get caught watching the same thing quite a bit of the time. Off the ball situations are almost impossible to call because you never clearly see them. I know I do a much better job officiating when there's 2 other people out there verses 1. If you think its is bad with 3 people I can imagine what it would be like with 2

I'm sure as an official you feel that way, and it makes sense that a 3rd official should make it easier to catch off-ball stuff. But going back to obvious calls that don't get made, it sure looks like too often each member of the crew is expecting another member to make the call and so none do. Sort of like rec volleyball when the ball hits the floor in the middle of three players, each of whom thought one of the others was going to hit it. IMHO, the two-man crews knew each had to call everything they saw. To be fair coordinating 3 people at anything is harder than coordinating two people.

[UnderParPanther]

Re: Officiating

youre not going to win this one, 3 person is completely superior to 2 person in every way except for the institution having to pay 3 people instead of 2.

clearly you've never officiated or you wouldn't feel this way. if 2 person were better the ncaa would have only 2 people doing the game.

[clenz]

Re: Officiating

youre not going to win this one, 3 person is completely superior to 2 person in every way except for the institution having to pay 3 people instead of 2.

clearly you've never officiated or you wouldn't feel this way. if 2 person were better the ncaa would have only 2 people doing the game.

I've only done baseball, but the times I've worked with a three man crew I've felt much better about it than two man crews.

[run&blade]

Re: Officiating

I would like to have a rule where a guy trying to draw a charging call cannot get that call from the offical who is looking at the defenders back. that official cannot tell at all if contact was actually made or if the defender is flopping.

It seems to me when guys get rewarded for flopping it is often called by the official looking at the defenders back.

[JayJ79]

Re: Officiating

officiating is part of the reason I just can't get into watching the sport of basketball.
there is just too much subjectivity inherent in the rules and the way they are called.

all too often, the same exact play could be:
- not called
- called a foul on the offensive player
- called a foul on the defensive player

and there really is no rhyme or reason to it it seems.

yes, there is some of that in football as well (i.e. pass interference), but not nearly to the extent that it exists in basketball.

[clenz]

Re: Officiating

officiating is part of the reason I just can't get into watching the sport of basketball.
there is just too much subjectivity inherent in the rules and the way they are called.

all too often, the same exact play could be:
- not called
- called a foul on the offensive player
- called a foul on the defensive player

and there really is no rhyme or reason to it it seems.

yes, there is some of that in football as well (i.e. pass interference), but not nearly to the extent that it exists in basketball.

There is holding on every single play in football...it's just a matter of if the ref feels like calling it....seems subjective to me.

[UnderParPanther]

Re: Officiating

I would like to have a rule where a guy trying to draw a charging call cannot get that call from the offical who is looking at the defenders back. that official cannot tell at all if contact was actually made or if the defender is flopping.

It seems to me when guys get rewarded for flopping it is often called by the official looking at the defenders back.

i agree with that to some extent...although when a charge/block does occur a lot of times 2 officials will both blow their whistles and then look at each other...normally the one w/ better position/angles will take the call.

[in_the_stands]

Re: Officiating

youre not going to win this one, 3 person is completely superior to 2 person in every way except for the institution having to pay 3 people instead of 2.

clearly you've never officiated or you wouldn't feel this way. if 2 person were better the ncaa would have only 2 people doing the game.

Only a very small amount of intramural reffing here. I've said before that BB is a difficult game to officiate, and I'll concede that I don't have a good idea of the off-ball situation from the two-official period, since like most people I follow the ball most of the time. Still, my feeling at least in terms of the on-ball action, is that officiating quality slipped, the reasons for which I've speculated on above.

Your reply doesn't address my earlier points about the obvious calls that aren't made (and while there are more than a few games that are on the whole well-called, almost every game has at least one blatant non-call), or the apparent diversity of opinion among the officiating community as to charge vs. block. I would hope you'd understand why players/coaches/fans find this frustrating.

[achrist70]

Re: Officiating

Personally I think every fan understands 3 or so missed calls a game thats human nature, and sometimes officials are blocked from seeing a call. I think were fans get frustrated is when officials working together are calling a completely different game (what one official sees as a foul his partner does not) which happens. Most of the time you will have that official in a position on one end of the floor where they are more likely to make a call, there for you get a great disparity in calls.

[UnderParPanther]

Re: Officiating

Only a very small amount of intramural reffing here. I've said before that BB is a difficult game to officiate, and I'll concede that I don't have a good idea of the off-ball situation from the two-official period, since like most people I follow the ball most of the time. Still, my feeling at least in terms of the on-ball action, is that officiating quality slipped, the reasons for which I've speculated on above.

Your reply doesn't address my earlier points about the obvious calls that aren't made (and while there are more than a few games that are on the whole well-called, almost every game has at least one blatant non-call), or the apparent diversity of opinion among the officiating community as to charge vs. block. I would hope you'd understand why players/coaches/fans find this frustrating.

i'm not sure what you mean by missed obvious calls as officials at the D-1 college level will get most of those correct (lower levels than that you are def correct as a lot gets missed) again, what can seem obvious from the stands or even while youre on the court officiating can in reality be the exact opposite from the another angle. the last thing you want to be doing as an official is guessing. officials watch their game films too and go back and review calls they made. i am racking my brain from last nights game or from any i've watched recently where there's been all the obvious calls that have not been made.

i know there were several calls that i would notice were not called w/ regularity that i found out why after i started reffing. one is the non-foul call when a player jumps up and into a defensive player for a offensive rebound. What seems like an easy pushing foul (there is no over the back call, its a push) is most of the time uncalled because 1) they'll hit the ball out of bounds 2) they wont get it and the defense will secure the rebound. the easiest way to put this is that it isnt called because it didn't impact the result as the defense still got the ball. It will be called if there is a lot of contact (knocks the player completely over) or the player knocks the ball where the defense won't end up w/ the ball. next time your watching a game notice how many times something happens and the ball ends up out-of-bounds where there coulda been a foul called but they will just reward the other team w/ the ball.

the blatent one-time a game missed call are what officials are trying their hardest to prevent and what non of them want. it happens...sorta like the missed called 3rd strike in baseball...officiating is subjective, its never going to be perfect...

the block/charge call is hands down the hardest call to make in any sport including pass interference in football. youre trying to watch the guy with the ball while also trying to figure out who forced the contact etc (just because a guy isnt set doesnt mean its a block)...not the easiest thing to do and for the most part i think college officials do a pretty good job getting them correct. players look quick from the stands, but when youre on the court w/ them they look even quicker and you are basically making split second decisions. fans always want the call their way anyway even if they were called 100% correct all the time. so w/ every call 50% of the people are pissed at you.... there should be no diversity in opinion from officials over what is a block/charge....the difference comes from the ability to process and interpret what has just happened given what they were able to see and then hopefully make the correct call. i dont get them all correct, but i'm trying to make the best call given what i've seen.


i dont think officiating has gotten too much worse, i think its gotten put under the microscope much more in the past 5-10yrs or so and that is why it seems to be getting worse. There's nothing that annoys me more than announcers on TV going back and making their own opinion on fouls during the broadcast. It just feeds the fire for fans to be upset w/ the call. Most of the times the announcers will say things that will lose them all credibility with people watching who know the correct rule. I love that FOX has Mike Parerra in the broadcast to explain ruling for football as you know he knows he stuff.

There are certain things about calls that I don't like at all. One is why a player is allowed to keep a hand on the ball handler without being called for a foul. I also dont like post players w/ their back to the basket bumping their defender backwards when they have the ball so they can get closer to the basket. Seems pretty obvious its an offensive foul and yet isnt called too often unless there's a flop.

On-ball officiating is going to be the same whether there is 1 person reffing or 3. Someone has to watch the person w/ the ball so a crew of 2 is going to ref the same as a crew of 3 w/ on-ball stuff. You're basically trying to figure out if a player is gaining an advantage or not and if they are call a foul. There's lots of incidental contact and there is def a fine line between that and a foul.


my only point from the beginning has just been teams are better off having 3 officials on the court than 2.

[UNIpanther99]

Re: Officiating

I recently watched a player dribble head-high with no call.

I hope that smiley face means you are being sarcastic, because there is nothing about dribbling head-high that ---by itself--- constitutes a violation.

The carry is one of the rules fans generally don't understand. Allong with over and back and three-seconds.

[achrist70]

Re: Officiating

I hope that smiley face means you are being sarcastic, because there is nothing about dribbling head-high that ---by itself--- constitutes a violation.

The carry is one of the rules fans generally don't understand. Allong with over and back and three-seconds.

Exactly as long as the hand is on top of the ball then it is not a carry.

[BCPanther]

Re: Officiating

Agreed 99, nobody understands the over and back rule.

[TommyT]

Re: Officiating

i dont think officiating has gotten too much worse, i think its gotten put under the microscope much more in the past 5-10yrs or so and that is why it seems to be getting worse.

Totally agree. I remember back in the 90's when we had 3 tv's set up in our apartment in Gold Falls and every Saturday we'd have each TV on a college game. The officiating was good back then, but there were definitely a lot of missed calls. Today, it seems like you see better officiating when it comes to fouls based on whether it truly affected the play or not. You still will get the "are you fricking kidding me" fouls, but not as bad as it used to be.