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Round 2: UC Davis

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  • Originally posted by clenz View Post
    Bailey
    Carnes Rennie
    Carlos Anderson
    Jarred Herring
    Vereen Jr
    Josh Collins
    Braden Lehman
    Will Eihlert
    Charles Brown
    Griffin Gaeta
    Dalton Demos
    Hezekiah Applegate
    Ezrah Szczyrbak


    To name a few


    Notice how they are all offense related issues?
    J'veyon Browning
    Suni Lane
    Trevor Allen
    Eric Mooney
    ​​​​​​
    Winning is more fun than losing.

    Comment


    • Anybody count how many bad snaps we had once Neisen took over at center?

      My count is 1...at UC Davis...that TA scooped and ran with.

      Better low than high.
      Winning is more fun than losing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by vbfan19 View Post
        how were the running QBs misused?
        was it the fact that they were used as QBs and not RBs?
        Pretty easily

        Rennie:
        By far the best of the three. I've long been known to be a "defender" of Rennie - especially in relation to the other two. Rennie being misused ties directly into Herring, Collins and Anderson.

        Rennie completed something like 58-59% of his passes for his career. The issue with his usagage was the offense around him. I can go dig up threads to prove my point, but if you'll recall the major (and it was a MASSIVE thing that carried across nearly every thread in 2010 and 2011) was the fact that we had 5'10 WRs (Herring and Collins) that were just absolute burner guys. They were paired with a 5'8 Carlos Anderson and a 5'10 Terrell Rennie. I don't care what they were listed at - I had classes with a couple of them in 2010. I'm 6', they were all well below my height.

        What plays were called? 15-20+ yard outs routes, 20+ yard seam routes, 10-15 yard in routes. We had guys that were 5'10 running deep routes against DBs taller than them, being thrown to be a guy that was 5'10, behind an offensive line that was 6'4 on average, and didn't have have the arm strength to throw those routes.

        I vividly remember Salmon coming out and saying that these were his preferred routes (specifically outside the numbers) because mathematically they gain more yards when completed. I vividly remember doing a full breakdown of why that was flawed logic and did a breakdown of where passes were thrown, how often they were completed, and the net yards per attempt and impact it had on a drive. The result (and backed up by any basic google search) as that it was a load of crap. IIRC the completion rate on passes outside the numbers and down field was about 30%. Shorter passes inside the numbers was closer to 65-70%. The yard differential was something like 17 yards on the outside per completion to about 9 yards per completion shorter and inside.

        His math worked in that, sure, it's almost double the yardage per completion to the outside. However, you're completing less than a third of your passes compared to two thirds inside.

        Instead of Rennie on a drive going 1-3 for 17 yards he could have gone 2-3 or 18 yards and put the offense is a much better EP for the drive with being a head of the sticks. This also doesn't take into account the impact that would have on play action - or the impact of a double move actually lifting the top off the defense.

        Not only that there was no jet sweeps. No jet motion overs. No option looks. Nothing to make defenders have to make a decision.

        Look at the extreme majority of college offenses these days. It's a bunch of guys similar to Rennie (albeit better passers) throwing passes inside of 10 yards. A ton of screen plays. A ton of motion plays. It's all a deception and getting the ball into a WR/RB hads as fast as possible in as much space as possible.

        None of that happened with Rennie. Would you argue that forcing Rennie to make reads and throw 20 yards down field to 5'10 WRs was properly utilizing his skills and his WRs skills?

        Carnes:
        To define him as a runner...is...possibly racist...I guess stereotypical/prejudicial is probably a better term. He averaged 6 carries per game (including sacks) in his career. He averaged 3.7 yards per carry (largely because sacks were the majority of his rush attempts but he did break a few bigger ones when he did actually leave the pocket). The major frustration with him is the fact he completed 46% of his passes as a senior (and just 51%) as a junior. He refused to run at all costs. I was told by people VERY well connected to those teams that even though UNI ran the zone read look on every play, it was never a read. Carnes wasn't told to read the end and pull the ball to run if the end collapsed. I've mentioned this multiple times over the years - the most vivid example of this was the SFA playoff game after UNI took over at their own 3 yard line on the east hash. Shotgun snap to Carnes with DJ on his right. Zone read to the left side of the offense. I was standing in the north endzone. It was right under me as it played out. The call was a straight zone run left. Had Carnes had the ability (or even willingness) to pull the ball out of DJ's gut and take off to the right side he, 4 plus years later, is still running with no one having a chance to catch him.10 players instantly flowed with the play, the only person that didn't was a CB on the WR split right. He was blocked up and was no threat to make a play on Carnes.

        The mishandling is the fact he was allowed/told to throw 20-25 times as games like a drop back QB. He wasn't used like a runner. He wasn't used to counter a defense flowing the entire defense to the way DJ was running. UNI won inspite of Carnes at QB, not because of him.

        Hell, to add to Carnes I'll add Sawyer was misused as well - especially post concussion. He was used in more true option looks than Carnes was. That's what ultimately ended his career. The hits he took outside the pocket were brutal.

        Bailey:
        Outside of the last 4 or 5 games of the 2015 season he was similar to Carnes in his usage (and the entire offense). Notice how once Farley figured out how to use a 6'4230lb QB that is a runner and a 6'2 225lb running back as a zone read option duo once UNI was 2-4 in 2015 and had Bailey trying to throw all over things got better? Then notice how in 2016 it became Bailey throwing again, his passing stats being terrible, still the offense involving him throwing and then him eventually having this mysterious shoulder injury that didn't really exist? Then end of the 2015 season is how he and Tyvis should have been used all season and all of 2016. 2016 rolled around and they both disappeared (for a number of reasons I grant) but the offense had reverted back to what it was before that run at the end of 15.



        I'm sorry. There is no way to argue that they weren't all mismanaged (and I said, I'll even throw Sawyer into that with his options and how they handled his concussions)
        GO PANTHERS!!!!!!!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Blue42 View Post

          J'veyon Browning
          Suni Lane
          Trevor Allen
          Eric Mooney
          ​​​​​​
          There were more on this year and last years team I thought about adding, but left of because I felt I had made my point - Lane and Browning being the biggest examples. Allen is a great example as well. He should be used like Malloy was. He isn't. That's completely wasting his talents with what he can do with the ball.

          The situation with Neisen and the snaps is another prime example
          GO PANTHERS!!!!!!!

          Comment


          • Makes sense. Thanks for the analysis.

            Comment


            • Deion McShane
              Selling a lot of old UNI stuff here: http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=65762

              Comment


              • Chad Owens
                #MACtion

                Comment


                • Wasn't sure how far down the WR hole to go

                  Owens, Vereen, Lemaster (even with his half attached leg), etc. Hell any WR theast decade has a case to be made
                  GO PANTHERS!!!!!!!

                  Comment


                  • Agreed Clenz...in 2016 should have seen Tyvis Smith and Aaron Bailey doing a rinse and repeat of the last half of 2015 and that could have been a special season. IF we could have gone one step further and given Aaron Bailey quick reads and short throws and very seldom over the top stuff it would have been a lot of fun to watch and maybe a really special season. Failure to continue to do what those two did so well was a real shame. I've never been sure if that was coaching or a player who wanted to prove he could be an NFL QB and wanted to throw and not run. I'll never know since i wasn't in the meeting room or at practice. The only thing i'm sure of with Aaron is that watching him was a bit like watching David Johnson when he was here. He was an athlete that was typically a level above everyone else on the field and the fact we couldn't leverage that and that things fractured and fell apart with i'm sure plenty of blame on both sides is a real shame.

                    Carnes...we had to play him and we did win in-spite of him but Sawyer was a lost cause at that point and had to sit. He was not the same player and it was sad.

                    Rinnie could have been given a better scheme but all things considered did a nice job.

                    I know it's popular to bash Farley and his love of dual threat quarterbacks here but, if we're going to continue to run the offense we run we need a dual threat quarterback. I'm ok with that, i even like it. Stick's dual threat, Wentz was Dual threat, Christion's a dual threat.

                    We need someone who can do what Sanders, Grace, Rinnie, Kollmorgen (when healthy) Bailey (an elite runner) could all do which is when asked to run, be an effective runner. They were all essentially dual threat type players. Sanders wasn't really a dual threat but he wasn't stationary. He was elusive and could run enough to keep drives moving while managing to avoid big hits. I think McIlvain can be that type of player for us, Devon Moore if he somehow lands in our laps here could be that type of player. Keller has that skill set but what he develops into is still up in the air. All we can assume is that the QB competition will be wide open as there will be 4-6 QB's on the roster that are Soph's and under eligibility wise and none of them has taken a meaningful snap.

                    Before Dunne when was the last time we played with a true drop back pocket passer? Helming and earlier really in my opinion.

                    Sorry for the long and rambling post...but lots on my mind about what has been and where we're headed.

                    Comment


                    • Agreed 100% on the idea of needing a QB that can move, but isn't a runner.

                      Wentz, Stick, Christion, Roberson, Sanders, Grace, Sawyer, etc. all had the ability to escape the pocket. We don't need a guy that's going to run for 40 or 50 a game. We don't need someone that can run a speed option. A guy that can move the pocket, make a play outside the pocket, etc. makes a world of difference

                      I love Eli's passing game. He elevated the offense to levels above where it should have been with his arm talent. The downside was he was Peyton Manning in the pocket. Extending plays, making plays outside of the pocket, etc. wasn't his strength. He got much smarter as he played more and was great at throwing the ball away, but there were times he threw it away where there could have been a 4 or 5 yard run gained or held out for just another second or two to see if something else developed before throwing it away.

                      GO PANTHERS!!!!!!!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by clenz View Post

                        There were more on this year and last years team I thought about adding, but left of because I felt I had made my point - Lane and Browning being the biggest examples. Allen is a great example as well. He should be used like Malloy was. He isn't. That's completely wasting his talents with what he can do with the ball.

                        The situation with Neisen and the snaps is another prime example
                        Malloy might be one guy we really did use well.

                        He was a big play machine and the last couple years we got him the ball a lot.

                        Which makes it all the more perplexing why they haven't used Trevor the same way...because it's so obvious they have similar skill sets.

                        Utterly baffled by this one.
                        Winning is more fun than losing.

                        Comment

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