Doug to Creighton

[Panther-Sheik]

Re: Doug to Creighton

Here's a snippet:

And this is the reason that Mac failed at ISU...he believes that an "athlete" can trump good, sound basketball skill and fundamentals. He went out and got Gilstrap...how'd that turn out, coach? Coach K has made himself a legend by never selling out to this crap.
By the way, nothing like telling your program, your fans, your bosses and all of your current and future players that they wouldn't be worthy of carrying the jockstraps of the Big XII (or any other big boy conference) schools. I'd be pissed if this was one of the first comments made by my new coach.

[UNI Prof]

Re: Doug to Creighton

Here's a snippet:

Yeah, Greg, keep telling yourself that.

Regards,

Mike Anderson

[Casey'sitsallgood]

Re: Doug to Creighton

And this is the reason that Mac failed at ISU...he believes that an "athlete" can trump good, sound basketball skill and fundamentals. He went out and got Gilstrap...how'd that turn out, coach? Coach K has made himself a legend by never selling out to this crap.
By the way, nothing like telling your program, your fans, your bosses and all of your current and future players that they wouldn't be worthy of carrying the jockstraps of the Big XII (or any other big boy conference) schools. I'd be pissed if this was one of the first comments made by my new coach.

My favorite part is how he talked about the state of Iowa not producing high-level athletes yet didn't Lickliter recruit in state? I know that didn't really work out that well for him but to say there isn't any Big XII level talent in this state is a bit of a joke if you ask me...

[06panther10]

Re: Doug to Creighton

And this is the reason that Mac failed at ISU...he believes that an "athlete" can trump good, sound basketball skill and fundamentals. He went out and got Gilstrap...how'd that turn out, coach? Coach K has made himself a legend by never selling out to this crap.
By the way, nothing like telling your program, your fans, your bosses and all of your current and future players that they wouldn't be worthy of carrying the jockstraps of the Big XII (or any other big boy conference) schools. I'd be pissed if this was one of the first comments made by my new coach.

Yeah, no kidding. All good points.

[9YRPLAN]

Re: Doug to Creighton

96 is mad at people for attacking him personally??????

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHHAHA

[run&blade]

Re: Doug to Creighton

IMO you do need a better athlete to compete in a BCS conference over the long haul. The trick is to have a great relationship with these high maintenance athletes so they still are willing to run through a brick wall for you. The good ones do this, and it isn't easy. Takes a special person to recruit and coach at the highest level. GMac doesn't have what it takes, not many do.

GMacs recruits tuned him out and/or left. Mac wasn't willing to loosen it up enough to let them use their athletic skills. Syracuse has about 4-6 plays on offense, Mac has a book.

[SteinPizza]

Re: Doug to Creighton

And this is the reason that Mac failed at ISU...he believes that an "athlete" can trump good, sound basketball skill and fundamentals. He went out and got Gilstrap...how'd that turn out, coach? Coach K has made himself a legend by never selling out to this crap.

OK, how about an athlete that ALSO has good fundamentals? Sheik, I semi-agree with you, but you also can't expect a team of Troy Skinner, Brooks McCowan, Wade Lookingbill type players to compete in the Big 12 over a full season. There are plenty of teams whose players are just as fundamentally sound and far better athletically.

Duke and Coach K have also produced plenty of NBA players too. I agree he hasn't sold out to the prima donna athlete, but he's got to recruit high level players to compete at his level.

Just for the record, I agreed with everything GMac said. You could argue that it's something he should've known going into the job, but his comments were dead on accurate.

[Panther-Sheik]

Re: Doug to Creighton

Stein, you absolutely need to have athleticism and b’ball skill to be successful. That recipe hasn’t changed since the inception of sport…it is not a new ideal. But, seriously, how many DI basketball players on scholarship would you say aren’t “athletic” now days?

I don’t have a problem with saying that you need to be athletic to play DI basketball. I don’t even have a problem with saying that many of the Big XII / Big 11 players can jump higher or run faster or have longer wingspans than the players on the UNI / Creighton / Butler etc. team. The problem is that the world has tried to define "athleticism" as if it IS a new thing that has never been seen before…almost like it is a new scheme like the 2 – 3 zone, or football’s run-and-shoot or the 3 – 4 defense.

This whole “athleticism” fallacy really began with Michael Jordan and has more to do with Sports Center than it does the sport of basketball. In today’s world, “athletic” people make the nightly Top 10 list. “Athletic” people can posterize their opponent and can do more things in a one-on-one situation than ever before. It is someone who not only CAN 360 dunk, but will choose to do it for the highlight rather than take the less-flashy, but surer 2 points. But, does that make for a better basketball team when it is all said and done? Not this year and not most years for Duke. North Carolina had one of the most “athletic” teams in college this year. They were totally unwatchable. Their athleticism was more their curse than it was this basketball panacea that people try to force down our throats.

Mac isn’t saying that people have to be able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time to play in the Big XII…he is saying that they have a different “athleticism” than a player in the Valley and that is the key ingredient to making them more successful. Which of Duke’s players this year fits that bill? Which of Butler’s players? Which of Michigan State’s, even? UNLV was more “athletic” than Michigan State, but it is Izzo’s (and coach K’s) scheme that makes them successful. To somehow reduce their success to simply recruiting better jumpers is absurd and offensive. I would say that Calipari has had success with recruiting athletes and dismissing system b’ball, but he is a cheater not a legend.

As for the NBA being the bench-mark and justification for “athletic” college teams being successful, take a look at the list of NBA players from MSU or Duke in the NBA. Great players (most of them), but I would hardly say that any more than 1 or 2 would be considered a “freak” athletically. Even look at some of the best of the best past and present…are Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem A.J., or John Stockton the height of athleticism? What about Tim Duncan, Kyle Korver or Kirk Heinrich? The NBA has its share of unbelievable athletes, but I wouldn’t say that is what makes the NBA “great” by any stretch…and for the record, I really can’t stand the NBA, mostly because of the “athletes” and their 1 on 1 attitudes.

Bottom line, Mac went to the Big XII and immediately sold out to this athleticism garbage and dismissed the importance of good coaching as it relates to success. Now, he is still selling the same snake oil and I think it is baloney and offensive to CU and the Valley as a whole. UNI or Butler would have never been successful in the Big XII…just in the NCAA tournament…

[Kyle]

Re: Doug to Creighton

That was a really long paragraph.

[UNI83]

Re: Doug to Creighton

Stein, you absolutely need to have athleticism and b’ball skill to be successful. That recipe hasn’t changed since the inception of sport…it is not a new ideal. But, seriously, how many DI basketball players on scholarship would you say aren’t “athletic” now days? I don’t have a problem with saying that you need to be athletic to play DI basketball. I don’t even have a problem with saying that many of the Big XII / Big 11 players can jump higher or run faster or have longer wingspans than the players on the UNI / Creighton / Butler etc. team. The problem is that the world has tried to define "athleticism" as if it IS a new thing that has never been seen before…almost like it is a new scheme like the 2 – 3 zone, or football’s run-and-shoot or the 3 – 4 defense. This whole “athleticism” fallacy really began with Michael Jordan and has more to do with Sports Center than it does the sport of basketball. In today’s world, “athletic” people make the nightly Top 10 list. “Athletic” people can posterize their opponent and can do more things in a one-on-one situation than ever before. It is someone who not only CAN 360 dunk, but will choose to do it for the highlight rather than take the less-flashy, but surer 2 points. But, does that make for a better basketball team when it is all said and done? Not this year and not most years for Duke. North Carolina had one of the most “athletic” teams in college this year. They were totally unwatchable. Their athleticism was more their curse than it was this basketball panacea that people try to force down our throats. Mac isn’t saying that people have to be able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time to play in the Big XII…he is saying that they have a different “athleticism” than a player in the Valley and that is the key ingredient to making them more successful. Which of Duke’s players this year fits that bill? Which of Butler’s players? Which of Michigan State’s, even? UNLV was more “athletic” than Michigan State, but it is Izzo’s (and coach K’s) scheme that makes them successful. To somehow reduce their success to simply recruiting better jumpers is absurd and offensive. I would say that Calipari has had success with recruiting athletes and dismissing system b’ball, but he is a cheater not a legend. As for the NBA being the bench-mark and justification for “athletic” college teams being successful, take a look at the list of NBA players from MSU or Duke in the NBA. Great players (most of them), but I would hardly say that any more than 1 or 2 would be considered a “freak” athletically. Even look at some of the best of the best past and present…are Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem A.J., or John Stockton the height of athleticism? What about Tim Duncan, Kyle Korver or Kirk Heinrich? The NBA has its share of unbelievable athletes, but I wouldn’t say that is what makes the NBA “great” by any stretch…and for the record, I really can’t stand the NBA, mostly because of the “athletes” and their 1 on 1 attitudes. Bottom line, Mac went to the Big XII and immediately sold out to this athleticism garbage and dismissed the importance of good coaching as it relates to success. Now, he is still selling the same snake oil and I think it is baloney and offensive to CU and the Valley as a whole. UNI or Butler would have never been successful in the Big XII…just in the NCAA tournament…

[Panther-Sheik]

Re: Doug to Creighton



Fixed it...although still very long...

[SteinPizza]

Re: Doug to Creighton

Mac isn’t saying that people have to be able to walk and chew bubblegum at the same time to play in the Big XII…he is saying that they have a different “athleticism” than a player in the Valley and that is the key ingredient to making them more successful. Which of Duke’s players this year fits that bill? Which of Butler’s players? Which of Michigan State’s, even? UNLV was more “athletic” than Michigan State, but it is Izzo’s (and coach K’s) scheme that makes them successful. To somehow reduce their success to simply recruiting better jumpers is absurd and offensive.

As for the NBA being the bench-mark and justification for “athletic” college teams being successful, take a look at the list of NBA players from MSU or Duke in the NBA. Great players (most of them), but I would hardly say that any more than 1 or 2 would be considered a “freak” athletically. Even look at some of the best of the best past and present…are Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Kareem A.J., or John Stockton the height of athleticism? What about Tim Duncan, Kyle Korver or Kirk Heinrich? The NBA has its share of unbelievable athletes, but I wouldn’t say that is what makes the NBA “great” by any stretch…and for the record, I really can’t stand the NBA, mostly because of the “athletes” and their 1 on 1 attitudes.

Again, I think GMac is spot on. The Big 12 is superior athletically to the MVC or any other mid major league. Sure, the MVC has good athletes, just not the across the board depth of talent, team by team.

To your point above about Bird, Stockton, Magic, Tim Duncan, etc. Some of those guys aren't super flashy athletes, but that's because they're being judged side by side against guys who are complete athletic freaks in the NBA. If you put Larry Bird in his prime on a college team - he could score 40 a game with one hand tied behind his back because he'd DOMINATE his competition. It doesn't mean it would be the smart thing to do, but he could do it if needed. Same with Stockton, etc.

The better team usually wins, that's true. But, the definition of good team has to include athleticism. Again, take the smartest, best fundamental team of guys who lack athleticism compared to their peers. They may win a game or two they shouldn't, but over the long haul they'll be average at best. Put another way - history proves you have to have NBA level talent on your roster to make the final four. Sure, bring up George Mason, but that's a one off. Every talking head/expert I've heard says this, and they're right.

Bottom line, college football and basketball are primarily recruiting (talent) driven sports. Sure, good coaching and execution are important, but superior athleticism will allow a great team to play through the execution mistakes which naturally occur in a game. If you want to watch sports which rely far more on chess match style coaching, schemes, and gameplanning, then turn off the NCAA and turn on the NFL and NBA, where coaching is more dominant due the talent level being far more even.

[Panther-Sheik]

Re: Doug to Creighton

You really believe the NBA is more of a coaching league / chess match than college basketball?? That league is all about finding a superstar. Well, at least I think GMac agrees with you...but we all see the results of that at ISU. I will put my money on Coach K, Bobby Knight, Tom Izzo, Tom Davis, even Coach Jake any day and for the long haul over the Calipari's of the world.