Who wants to play in Carver next week?

[strike00]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

Your own record only accounts for 25% of your rpi

The other 75% is your opponents record and their opponents record, not including you

It's arbitrary and absurd.

no its not. Wins are meaningless if you beat Texas Pan-American 25 times. Like it or not, the only way to determine good wins and bad losses is to determine how good your opponents are, and to do that you have to look at their record and the quality of their opponents and so on. Like 06panther10 said said, it's not the end all be all by any means, but it is the most objective tool IMO.

[06panther10]

Your own record only accounts for 25% of your rpi

The other 75% is your opponents record and their opponents record, not including you

It's arbitrary and absurd.

Its weighted that way so that the relative strength of the wins/losses can be observed. Its not that difficult to understand.

Saying that your own record "counts less" is misleading and not really representative of what is actually there.

[Newsbreaker]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

We have somehow located one of the last bastions of defense of the RPI. There are lots of good, objective measurements, but RPI is the outlier because it relies too much on the opponents and, indefensibly, the opponents of opponents records.

A "new" hole has been detected. MWC schools have done something smart. You don't think everyone isn't going to exploit that? You don't think that wont cost everyone outside of the power leagues a few opportunities to play better competition?

They really need to add other metics to the "official" basket of measurements. Add KenPom, add Sagarin, etc.

[TH1974]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

iowa fans have never before been critical of the rpi.

Now all of a sudden iowa's rpi sucks and... Outrage!!! The system is broken!!! Mid majors are gaming the system!!! Rpitards!!!

It really is quite entertaining and worth a laugh.

grr arrghhh blaggghhh!!!! Rrarr!!

[9YRPLAN]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

no its not. Wins are meaningless if you beat Texas Pan-American 25 times. Like it or not, the only way to determine good wins and bad losses is to determine how good your opponents are, and to do that you have to look at their record and the quality of their opponents and so on. Like 06panther10 said said, it's not the end all be all by any means, but it is the most objective tool IMO.

nothing proves a point like a completely impossible hypothetical!

[9YRPLAN]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

Iowa fans have never before been critical of the RPI.

Now all of a sudden Iowa's RPI sucks and... OUTRAGE!!! THE SYSTEM IS BROKEN!!! MID MAJORS ARE GAMING THE SYSTEM!!! RPITARDS!!!

It really is quite entertaining and worth a laugh.

LOL at anyone who thinks i bring up iowa too much.

[BCPanther]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

Co-worker told me that Iowa has had a great year and being in the NIT is actually better because the NCAA tournament has turned into a 'Mid-Major Showcase'...

'It'll be nice to play some power conference teams in the postseason'...

[jnutt]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

Co-worker told me that Iowa has had a great year and being in the NIT is actually better because the NCAA tournament has turned into a 'Mid-Major Showcase'...

'It'll be nice to play some power conference teams in the postseason'...

wow. that is so insanely idiotic they should not be allowed to feed themselves

[95UNIGRAD]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

the system is anything but stacked against power conference school is Boise and MTSU are at-large teams.

that being said, why shouldnt the power conferences have more say? their money drives the entire sport.

FIFY - Kaboom.

[strike00]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

nothing proves a point like a completely impossible hypothetical!

yes, because clearly I meant playing Texas Pan-American 25 times literally.

Why should a win against the 250th best team count almost as much as a win against the 25th best team? That's what would happen if you weighted things more heavily on your own record rather than setting up a system to determine how strong your opponents are, first and foremost.

There are strengths and weaknesses to any computer model you look at. Whether it is Kenpom, RPI or whatever. Ideally the committee would look at the strengths and weaknesses from each, take what they can from each model and make a decision based on everything. That's a lot of freakin work for all those teams and I would be surprised if a committee could or would be willing to do that.

[9YRPLAN]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

yes, because clearly I meant playing Texas Pan-American 25 times literally.

Why should a win against the 250th best team count almost as much as a win against the 25th best team? That's what would happen if you weighted things more heavily on your own record rather than setting up a system to determine how strong your opponents are, first and foremost.

There are strengths and weaknesses to any computer model you look at. Whether it is Kenpom, RPI or whatever. Ideally the committee would look at the strengths and weaknesses from each, take what they can from each model and make a decision based on everything. That's a lot of freakin work for all those teams and I would be surprised if a committee could or would be willing to do that.

as i have said a dozen times, the statistics show that there is virtually no difference between a top 50 team playing the #200 or #300 RPI teams in terms of wins and losses.

[strike00]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

probably true. It makes sense, a good team should be able to beat both teams without much of a problem. However, if you are using a mathematical formula, making the #200 and #300 teams closer together in value, you will also make a top 50 win closer to the #200 team than it should be. I'm not saying it would be equal, but closer than what they should be. Now you could put an added weight on teams as they get higher in ranking, but that would have to introduce more bias into the formula, as well as causing a #200 team to have a very difficult time raising their ranking.

It's a nice discussion to talk about what should be used by the committee, but the reality is that every person in the world that has any knowledge of college basketball knows what the committee looks at and what it is looking for. If AD's ignore that and it comes back to bite them then fans can really only blame them. Whether you think the RPI is worthless or the best thing ever, you know that it is a large part of what is used to select at larges and it is the same for everybody.

[06panther10]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

We have somehow located one of the last bastions of defense of the RPI. There are lots of good, objective measurements, but RPI is the outlier because it relies too much on the opponents and, indefensibly, the opponents of opponents records.

A "new" hole has been detected. MWC schools have done something smart. You don't think everyone isn't going to exploit that? You don't think that wont cost everyone outside of the power leagues a few opportunities to play better competition?

They really need to add other metics to the "official" basket of measurements. Add KenPom, add Sagarin, etc.

Do you have any actual rationale for the opinion that a team's opponents record and their opponent's opponents record should not be an important factor? This is a great way to measure the relative strength of the teams you have played. How can that not be important when comparing teams with different schedules?

A "new hole" has not been detected. Its always been there, and teams have always done this (we've done this many times). If a certain school is too dumb to figure out how to schedule smarter, then that's their problem. RPI is simple. Schedule better teams, win more games.

[Newsbreaker]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

Co-worker told me that Iowa has had a great year and being in the NIT is actually better because the NCAA tournament has turned into a 'Mid-Major Showcase'...

'It'll be nice to play some power conference teams in the postseason'...

The fine citizens of this board don't want people running around taking about crazy things members of a fan base have said and then using that as an exemplar of the whole. I'm just sayin'.

Do you have any actual rationale for the opinion that a team's opponents record and their opponent's opponents record should not be an important factor? This is a great way to measure the relative strength of the teams you have played. How can that not be important when comparing teams with different schedules?

A "new hole" has not been detected. Its always been there, and teams have always done this (we've done this many times). If a certain school is too dumb to figure out how to schedule smarter, then that's their problem. RPI is simple. Schedule better teams, win more games.

We both know you're not going to think I've ever made a good point because of who I am and because of who you are. We can pretend, I guess.

Opponents record does a good job of measuring the strength of who you've played. Opponents opponents record is a step too far.

Is our game versus Iowa less impressive because their opponents were unimpressive? Does a win over us count for substantially less because our opponents turned out not to be very good? Or does our record quite adequately represent us?

I'm looking for the records of our opponents next to our yearly w-l records. Not finding it. It's quite important, so it must be in a prominent place somewhere.

This loophole has never been discussed in any important way before.

[sivert]

Re: Who wants to play in Carver next week?

...
Opponents record does a good job of measuring the strength of who you've played. Opponents opponents record is a step too far.

Is our game versus Iowa less impressive because their opponents were unimpressive?

Actually, yes. Iowa is 21-12. Norfolk State is 21-11 (RPI:177). Beating Iowa would be more impressive than beating Norfolk State. A team that plays Iowa is playing a team that's 21-12 against tougher teams.

RPI has its problems, but it is very simple.